The "Big Bluegrass Microphone" - Pictures of proto

[alk509]

[quote author="Flatpicker"]Wow! Let me warn you, its going to be a great show![/quote]

A friend of mine dragged me to a "Béla Fleck and the Flecktones" concert about 4 years ago, and it literally changed my life. Most of the stuff I listen to today, is stuff I've gotten into as a direct result of being at that concert and having this sort of "Eureka!" moment right there in the middle of Victor Wooten's solo.

Anyone heard the Perpetual Motion CD? I'm telling you, Béla is a sick man......

Peace,
Al.

 

[mike_relay]

I saw Bela Fleck, Edgar Meyer, and Mike Marshall at the Ark about 4-5 years ago.. it was amazing! I'm a big fan of Bela Fleck, but I always thought the Flecktones stuff was a little cheesy.

And hey Scott.. if you need a an assistant for the show.. I can always come into town for the night.. :wink:
-mike

 

[bcarso]

A little cheesy...but what Great Cheese!

Flight of the Cosmic Hippo is a great demo track for showing a woofer's true colors though.

Edgar Meyer is totally amazing. His Bach cello suite CD is unbelievable.

 

[pstamler]

[quote author="pmroz"]AT4033 might not even be a LD... saw a couple posts from Gus, went to website, but no capsule diameter in spec. Funny, they say 'choice of bluegrass musicians' or something.[/quote]

I believe its capsule is either 3/4" or 5/8" in diameter.

Peace,
Paul

 

[Scodiddly]

[quote author="pstamler"][quote author="pmroz"]AT4033 might not even be a LD... saw a couple posts from Gus, went to website, but no capsule diameter in spec. Funny, they say 'choice of bluegrass musicians' or something.[/quote]

I believe its capsule is either 3/4" or 5/8" in diameter.[/quote]

Which would tend to support my theory about the best type of mic...

 

[pmroz]

Hey, sorry to sound off so much in the drawing board..
I get excited when i think i can actually contribute and maybe help.
So many people here have spent hours typing (to my benefit).

Flight of the Cosmic Hippo is a great demo track for showing a woofer's true colors though.

Yeah, we travelled with a soundguy who used this track and the first track of Femi Kuti's first album... forget name of song.

Victor and Oteil are two of my faves... super nice guys as well.
But their daddy is Stanley Clarke... that guy does not suck. At all. IMO Clarke's style is Wooten's foundation.
Victor usually does a solo workshop at TBF. You can really tell.
I guess SC is now 'old school'... which means i'm getting old.

Edgar Meyer is totally amazing. His Bach cello suite CD is unbelievable.

Yes, legendary talent. Plus his main bass is a stellar instrument. Sometimes BG players prefer crappy plywood basses. Rockabilly too. Also most BG bassists don't do Bach...
IIRC we tried a 4050 on his bass one year (Barenberg/Marshall/Meyer), but the DI out on his rig (can't recall details) was far superior.
He's different than most BG bassists as he bows over 50% of the time. Bowed bass probably twice? as much ambient volume as pizz. Tough to normal the level for one output when switching between the two.
Also tough because bow rosin plus finger grease makes strings sticky, and pizz becomes a struggle. Don't know how he does it.
Clarke's should be an interesting rig, as he is known to play upright (bowed and pizz), electric, and piccolo bass at the same show.

...if 4033 is smaller diaphragm, sounds like you're on the right track. Bet you could DIY something that would stomp the 4033 for this.
have you tried Alice as the mic?

 

[mike_relay]

[quote author="pmroz"]IIRC we tried a 4050 on his bass one year (Barenberg/Marshall/Meyer), but the DI out on his rig (can't recall details) was far superior.
He's different than most BG bassists as he bows over 50% of the time. Bowed bass probably twice? as much ambient volume as pizz. Tough to normal the level for one output when switching between the two.
Also tough because bow rosin plus finger grease makes strings sticky, and pizz becomes a struggle. [/quote]

He wasn't using a piezo pickup.. was he? The times I've seen him he was always playing with a mic pretty far away...
As gar as the rosin thinng.. You usually bow quite a bit lower, towards the bridge and pizz above where the fingerboard ends. That said, Edgar's bass has that extra long fingerboard.

 

[pmroz]

.
sense a thread hijacking here... is it ok to pm a fellow bassist?

... also my earlier ramblings may have steered real mic guys like Gus, Marik, etc away from contributing more useful information for Sco.

Sorry Sco
enjoy the show!

 

[adrianh]

I admire BG music live.
It is one of the harder music styles to "mix"
Since it so pure.
I admire the simplist approach.

But I do not get the no monitors thing.
Inside a building a perfect world great.
But I have done festivials with many types of music.
And when the BG band comes on stage thay want no monitors
They are spread out all over the stage.
I crank the PA up to cover the crowd.
Everyone in the crowd is happy with the volume (yes even grandpa with his hearing aid).
But always the BG band says they cannot hear themselfs.
I suggest moniors they say no way. I suggest they play in a tighter
pattern on stage they say but we need the whole stage.
I tell them if they need me I will be at the board.
And walk away while mumbling under my breath idiots.
I will do over a dozen bands and acts that day.
I cannot find anyone who was unhappy with the sound or my
interaction with them. But the BG musicans are real upset.
Where did I go wrong?
I have done BG with monitors several times and the old timers
said that was the best they have ever heard.

 

[Flatpicker]

They decline your offer to give them monitors and then complain that they can't hear themselves??!! Rest assured it has nothing to do with you - they're just crazy!

 

[Scodiddly]

Still working on this idea.

Had an interesting thought... assuming an XY pair, I could could run the signals through a Mid/Side matrix, have a control for side level, and then through another matrix to convert back to stereo. Even if summed to mono in the PA it should be possible to set the overall width of the pickup. That would be extremely handy.

 

[Scodiddly]

OK, here's a prototype! It works, except that the shockmounting doesn't help any. Going to have to play around with rubbery/stringy materials a bit.

Basically the Alice design, with modified TSB-165A capsules, a different FET (J202) and a trimpot to bias the 1Gohm resistor for better SPL handling.

 

[rodabod]

That looks fantastic!

Well Done!

You could maybe try metal springs similar to my DIY ribbon mic. There are pictures on the thread. They need to be damped though.

Is this design transformerless then?

 

[chrissugar]

Looks great. Nice finish.

chrissugar

 

[tk@halmi]

Wow, that is a heck of a dookie! Where do you get the male XLR socket for the mic?

 

[Guest]

[quote author="pmroz"].

Sco, thanks for the info. Always interested in live setup details. People say this or that mic sucks or doesn't suck, but it's so dependent on proximity and source. There's a few threads around here about the 4033, mostly sitting unused on shelves. I don't have one, but I've heard it in the one-mic application, not just for Del, and it sounds great. I think it's a matter of studio vs live in this discussion. Maybe it's about the combination of off-axis rejection and the right size field for this job. Guys at HOB and other mid-size places my band plays loud music are always throwing a pair of those things on drum overheads.
My KSM32 generally sounds good for close-micing, but not-so-good farther way...

Can't even start to get my head around how you might design a mic for optimal spread and proximity of 24-36 inches. Probably lots of testing...
With 2-in-1 mic, maybe tough to avoid either a less-sensitive or too-sensitive spot in the middle that would throw players off. Maybe you could tweak the pattern of just one capsule for optimal proximity and rejection.
But stereo would be pretty nice for this mic, wouldn't it...

AT4033 might not even be a LD... saw a couple posts from Gus, went to website, but no capsule diameter in spec. Funny, they say 'choice of bluegrass musicians' or something.

This year at TBF... Bela Fleck/Jean Luc Ponty/Stanley Clarke trio.
what a gas...my hero SC...

Good luck with the mic! If it works 'mighty fine' bring it out to TBF one of these years.[/quote]

i just opened up a 4033 last night to have a looksie....it's definitely not a 1" LDC. i guess it all depends on what large diaphragm means to you... :roll:

the 4033 is a great mic for a variety of sources.

 

[Guest]

[quote author="Scodiddly"]OK, here's a prototype! It works, except that the shockmounting doesn't help any. Going to have to play around with rubbery/stringy materials a bit.

Basically the Alice design, with modified TSB-165A capsules, a different FET (J202) and a trimpot to bias the 1Gohm resistor for better SPL handling.

[/quote]

that's beautiful...

any examples of it's sound....

i wanna hear some blue grass! :grin:

 

[Scodiddly]

Sorry, no sound samples yet. I need to figure out the shockmounting, then disassemble the whole thing and actually do the finish. I'm going to do a satin finish with a fine brass wire wheel, then spray-lacquer.

Yes, it's transformerless.

The connector is a Switchcraft B4M. Available from Mouser and other Switchcraft dealers.

I used the McMaster-Carr bar railing stuff, including the end-cap. I had to get a machinist make a hole for the connector, though - the end-cap is 4mm thick!

 

[Scodiddly]

Couple of changes - at the moment I'm using yarn for the shockmounting. It doesn't need to be stretchy so much as inert, and this was the best material I could think of. Still a bit noisy when bumped, but a lot of that is most likely coming through the wiring now. Also the body has a bit of a bell-like ring, so I've added some foam around the insides to help damp it.

I'd mentioned that I used a J202 FET in place of the standard Alice-mic 2N4416. For one thing it's a buck cheaper, the other thing is that the biasing is a bit more tricky than just grounding the other end of the 1Gohm resistor. I'd added a couple trimpots to handle that, but what I discovered was that the J202 is also noisy compared to the 2N4416. So, I changed to 2N4416 FETs.

Finally, I'm adding a layer of thin foam around the inside of the screening. It should help damp ringing, cut what I think is reflected sound inside the screening, and mellow out the brigmtness just a bit. I was comparing with an "Audrey", an Alice with the modified capsule, and while a bit of the very top was weaker the overall sound was smoother.

 

[dayvel]

I think taking the XY into MS and back is the long way around. What you really need is what they used to call a "panorama" or "width" control on old stereos (not the same as panning on a mixer.) It just blends the left and right signals together anywhere between mono and full stereo. You can do this with a dual pot and two summing amps after the preamps.