The know-nothing GOP

[Recording Engineer]

Shiv played the Trump "Hey Russia!  If you're listening. . ." quote like it's something serious other than a joke.

So bogus!  And the media hacks are discussing his brilliance.  Puh-leeze.  Just because it's on the radio, feevee, anti-social, and front pages doesn't make it true.

Now time for the media complex hacks to trash the defense.

Mike

Except, the next day, Russia hacked the DNC. And eventually, WikiLeaks releases material from that hack. Joke or not, don’t deny the fallout. Why denial of the fallout? There has to be a reason.

 

[Recording Engineer]

I think it is safe to assume that neither side will be satisfied by the outcome we are headed toward. This is a classic lose-lose as both political parties get diminished in voter's eyes. So who benefits? The political pundit class from both sides get to pontificate stirring up political distrust and anger, to generate more campaign funding.

This is actually a lose-lose-lose as not only both parties, but all voters lose too as the system gets perverted and abused for sliming each other.

I hope that we are wise enough to step back and see the mass manipulation for what it is.

This is a glorified family squabble, where after it is over, we are still one county.

Keep up the civil discussion, and patience.

JR

The only way to achieve this is probably a constitutional amendment on impeachment.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The only way to achieve this is probably a constitutional amendment on impeachment.

? To achieve what I am talking about requires the public to gain a common sense perspective about the political process (overt manipulation)... That is probably as unlikely as passing a constitutional amendment.  Then there are several items higher up on my amendment short list.... (like: term limits, budget growth constraints, etc, etc).

The popular wisdom is that this current political enmity is a unique situation triggered by President Trump because of his bombastic aggressive counter-punching, but the more I think about this the more I expect he is also a victim of current times (the times they are a changing) .

Anyone paying attention to world news has seen the wave of nationalism that well predates the election of President Trump...  Then we have the rise of social media and it's acceleration of spreading viral memes like never before. President Trump is acting young for his age, embracing social media to speak directly to his audience leapfrogging around the filters of mass media. IMO the only other politician on the same level as Trump for exploiting social media is AOC (for better and worse).

I am not smart enough to predict how the big "this" ends, but the little "this" (impeachment trial outcome) is pretty predictable.

Again I want to compliment this group for maintaining civility while all around us are stressed out by things they can't change.

JR

 

[sodderboy]

Except, the next day, Russia hacked the DNC. And eventually, WikiLeaks releases material from that hack. Joke or not, don’t deny the fallout. Why denial of the fallout? There has to be a reason.

Fallout!  I love it!  Shrillary’s server had been shredded for months when T made that joke.
The russkies hacked the wrong server!  They were using the “RESET” translator to process T’s campaign event.  Boinnnnnng.

Hey Russia!

 

[iturnknobs]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/25/politics/recording-trump-lev-parnas-igor-fruman-ukraine-ambassador/index.html

For those of you on the wrong side of history, here's an opportunity to change your story, yet again...  or argue process... or defy subpoenas... and has anyone noticed that HC wasn't elected in 2016. I find it odd that a president's conduct is consistently compared to someone who has/does not hold said office.  If you're going to debate presidential behavior, please do it using another previous PRESIDENT. I guess that's another GOP Know-nothing talking point.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Fallout!  I love it!  Shrillary’s server had been shredded for months when T made that joke.
The russkies hacked the wrong server!  They were using the “RESET” translator to process T’s campaign event.  Boinnnnnng.

Hey Russia!

I don’t know what any of this means.

 

[Recording Engineer]

? To achieve what I am talking about requires the public to gain a common sense perspective about the political process (overt manipulation)... That is probably as unlikely as passing a constitutional amendment.  Then there are several items higher up on my amendment short list.... (like: term limits, budget growth constraints, etc, etc).

JR

Right. Public gaining common sense of the political process is never going to happen. Absolutely too indoctrinated. Hence, the reason my call for needing letters of the law. The public doesn’t argue the this, unless they’re regurgitating opinion arguments of lawyers seen on TV.

Keyword: Opinion

But I concur, an amendment is never going to happen. That would be too easy and too clear; nothing anybody actually wants.

 

[Scodiddly]

Right. Public gaining common sense of the political process is never going to happen. Absolutely too indoctrinated. Hence, the reason my call for needing letters of the law. The public doesn’t argue the this, unless they’re regurgitating opinion arguments of lawyers seen on TV.

I dunno how true that might be.  I think a vast majority of Americans can see that Trump is a bullshit artist, and those who support him do so because they're getting their legislative goals. When we get into these typically useless online arguments we of course go looking for professional talking points to reuse.

The real questions for 2020 are whether Trump's unshakeable base can re-elect Trump all by themselves (the numbers say "no"), and what external forces such as election hacking might do.

 

[sodderboy]

I don’t know what any of this means.

1.  Trump asked the russkies to find shrillary's emails, they supposedly hacked the DNC server instead the next day, and there is supposed to be fallout on Trump.  Totally lame.

2.  Early in her distinguished career as a stateswoman, shrill presented the infamous russian RESET button to russian foreign minister sergei lavrov.  The russian word used on the label meant overload, but a bumbling staff mistake was simply ignored by mass media. The russians though she was a total joke.  They would have walked all over her as prez like they did obama. 

If Rex Tillerson had done that, it would be wall-2-wall reported, and you would understand RESET.

Hey Russia!

 

[JohnRoberts]

Right. Public gaining common sense of the political process is never going to happen. Absolutely too indoctrinated. Hence, the reason my call for needing letters of the law. The public doesn’t argue the this, unless they’re regurgitating opinion arguments of lawyers seen on TV.

Keyword: Opinion

But I concur, an amendment is never going to happen. That would be too easy and too clear; nothing anybody actually wants.

If you think passing an amendment is easy you do not have much grasp of history or law.  I would love a serious discussion about amending the constitution, and there have been efforts underway for years with little success.  It appears that modern politicians prefer to ignore the constitution when it is inconvenient, then wrap themselves in it like a flag, when the cameras are rolling.  :

The public generally gets what they want (or thinks they want) eventually but with entrenched politicians in office is can take multiple flushes to clear the sewer line.

This too will pass...(pun intended).  8)

JR

 

[Recording Engineer]

I dunno how true that might be.  I think a vast majority of Americans can see that Trump is a bullsh*t artist, and those who support him do so because they're getting their legislative goals.

I hope you’re right. We shall see.

 

[pucho812]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/25/politics/recording-trump-lev-parnas-igor-fruman-ukraine-ambassador/index.html

For those of you on the wrong side of history, here's an opportunity to change your story, yet again...  or argue process... or defy subpoenas... and has anyone noticed that HC wasn't elected in 2016. I find it odd that a president's conduct is consistently compared to someone who has/does not hold said office.  If you're going to debate presidential behavior, please do it using another previous PRESIDENT. I guess that's another GOP Know-nothing talking point.

whenever people do, if they use potus 44 as an example they are called racists and other names.  So yeah we can compare to the former easily but even the playing field a bit.  I read things like how 44's administration was scandal free, it wasn't.  44 was also charged with obstruction of congress and had the only AG in history to be found guilty of being in contempt of congress. 44 was also the only Nobel prize winner in history to kill another Nobel prize winner when he authorized a bombing in Afghanistan which ended up hitting a doctors without borders hospital.  But hey whatever racist to bring anything negative on 44. 

 

[Recording Engineer]

1.  Trump asked the russkies to find shrillary's emails, they supposedly hacked the DNC server instead the next day, and there is supposed to be fallout on Trump.  Totally lame.

2.  Early in her distinguished career as a stateswoman, shrill presented the infamous russian RESET button to russian foreign minister sergei lavrov.  The russian word used on the label meant overload, but a bumbling staff mistake was simply ignored by mass media. The russians though she was a total joke.  They would have walked all over her as prez like they did obama. 

If Rex Tillerson had done that, it would be wall-2-wall reported, and you would understand RESET.

Hey Russia!

No. It’s Trump’s job to acknowledge and do something about it instead of denying it even happened.

As for the second point, it’s sounding more like a political anecdote more than anything else. Your continued use of childish name calling of Hillary, to get under people’s skin as a form of classic bullying, just as the president does, doesn’t help either.

 

[Recording Engineer]

If you think passing an amendment is easy you do not have much grasp of history or law.  I would love a serious discussion about amending the constitution, and there have been efforts underway for years with little success.

JR

What gave you that impression? Seriously.  I thought it pretty obvious it’s simply wishful thinking, just as yours is. I even said it would never happen because that’d be too straightforward and clear. Obviously, nobody wants that. I was jokingly, very serious.

If everyone actually did want some now extremely important things spelled-out,  not in our original constitution, an amendment for anything we can all agree is truly that important, a real collective effort should at least be attempted, period. When was the last time that actually happened? A true bi-partisan effort? Nobody trusting either side and all these conspiracy theories, I can’t think of a better time for more clear letters of the law.

But again, to be clear, it’s all just out loud wishful thinking. I don’t have enough faith in our leaders, nor the voters, at this point.

 

[JohnRoberts]

What gave you that impression? Seriously.  I thought it pretty obvious it’s simply wishful thinking, just as yours is. I even said it would never happen because that’d be too straightforward and clear. Obviously, nobody wants that. I was jokingly, very serious.

It is unlikely to happen, but not because it would be too straightforward and clear.

Our founders had a completely different problem in mind when they wrote the impeachment remedy. They were worried about the chief executive of our poor foundling nation being corrupted by wealthy foreign countries. 

If everyone actually did want some now extremely important things spelled-out,  not in our original constitution, an amendment for anything we can all agree is truly that important, a real collective effort should at least be attempted, period. When was the last time that actually happened? A true bi-partisan effort? Nobody trusting either side and all these conspiracy theories, I can’t think of a better time for more clear letters of the law.

The constitution is intentionally vague about what high crimes, are but clearly they are expected to be rare, and significant. Not a party politics disagreement. 

But again, to be clear, it’s all just out loud wishful thinking. I don’t have enough faith in our leaders, nor the voters, at this point.

Our founders wisely had little faith in politicians too, so designed government systems where power was limited with checks and balances to prevent too much power accumulating in any one branch.

Amendments are difficult to approve by design. Likewise the hurdle of requiring a 2/3 majority in the senate makes impeachment convictions similarly difficult.  Our founders anticipated a very high crime that could win compelling bipartisan support for removal.

This is not that (IMO), so instead we get impeachment as a political strategy to smear the sitting president with no expectation of removal.  I am repeating myself but I truly hope this does not become routine acceptable, partisan political behavior. I hope the voters express their displeasure in Nov, discouraging this strategy in the future. Even a casual student of history recalls that President Clinton became more popular after his failed impeachment. 

JR

 

[sodderboy]

No. It’s Trump’s job to acknowledge and do something about it instead of denying it even happened.

As for the second point, it’s sounding more like a political anecdote more than anything else. Your continued use of childish name calling of Hillary, to get under people’s skin as a form of classic bullying, just as the president does, doesn’t help either.

He's never denied that he said that perfect joke at his opponent's expense, and he has to do nothing about it.  To assign any blame to him for what the russians do is more of the poppycock that has been spewed 24-7 for the last 3 years.  Read the Drooler report.  No collusion.  The indictment of the russians was total theater and weissman's wolves looked like fools in court.  The whole council was theater because there was no there there.  Get over it folks!

So if a democrat is involved its anecdotal or a conspiracy theory, and if a republican is involved it is treasonous or impeachable.  This is the same hypocrisy that was on display with the house  managers.  Time to "move on" to coin a phrase and pick the candidate who will go against a sitting president who has a long list of under-reported and belittled but actual accomplishments.

Mike

 

[Recording Engineer]

He's never denied that he said that perfect joke at his opponent's expense, and he has to do nothing about it.  To assign any blame to him for what the russians do is more of the poppycock that has been spewed 24-7 for the last 3 years.  Read the Drooler report.  No collusion.  The indictment of the russians was total theater and weissman's wolves looked like fools in court.  The whole council was theater because there was no there there.  Get over it folks!

So if a democrat is involved its anecdotal or a conspiracy theory, and if a republican is involved it is treasonous or impeachable.  This is the same hypocrisy that was on display with the house  managers.  Time to "move on" to coin a phrase and pick the candidate who will go against a sitting president who has a long list of under-reported and belittled but actual accomplishments.

Mike

I haven’t/ am not saying any of that. Any. I’m simply saying: Trump made the joke and less-than 24-hours later, the DNC was hacked. Suspicious, but absolutely possible it’s purely coincidence. Regardless, it justifies an investigation all-around.

Instead of dealing with the fallout (fallout being the hack within 24-hours of the joke) and encouraging an investigation, Trump questions if it even happened, even after damn near everyone around him eventually concluded it did and by whom. Added suspicion.  Eventually, he comes around that it did happen, but blames it on someone else, even when damn near everyone around him continue to say otherwise. Pile on the suspicion. Continued muting of witnesses by him adds a mountain of suspicion.

I don’t blame him for the joke or the hack, I blame him for his comments and actions after. Actual convictions and continued criminal prosecutions all-around him says far more of than any of that stuff combined.

Trump actually has people viewing him as a victim. His continued suspicious comments and actions outside his wonderful policies and “long list of under-reported and belittled but actual accomplishments“ says otherwise to me. The problem, I find, is that people give Trump a pass on absolutely all of these comments and actions because of those things.

 

[Matador]

The constitution is intentionally vague about what high crimes, are but clearly they are expected to be rare, and significant. Not a party politics disagreement. 

Can I infer from this that you believed that Clinton's impeachment was completely a 'party politics disagreement'?

 

[Recording Engineer]

This is not that (IMO), so instead we get impeachment as a political strategy to smear the sitting president with no expectation of removal.  I am repeating myself but I truly hope this does not become routine acceptable, partisan political behavior. I hope the voters express their displeasure in Nov, discouraging this strategy in the future. Even a casual student of history recalls that President Clinton became more popular after his failed impeachment. 

JR

At what point do we start getting past that it’s ALL about political strategy and today’s social climate and start distributing some of the blame on Trump’s comments and actions? Reap what you sow seems like a very applicable proverb right now.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Can I infer from this that you believed that Clinton's impeachment was completely a 'party politics disagreement'?

It kind of was... on one level it was internationally embarrassing that we were so provincial about extramarital sex.  : Don't look too closely at our past presidents.

That said modern culture has changed since then (#METOO et al), which would have given President Clinton a much bumpier ride now under current mores.  (Just about finished reading The Madness of Crowds, and yes we have much work to do to avoid all those landmines).

President Clinton was charged with lying under oath, the favorite gotcha for federal prosecutors, and obstruction (sound familiar?).  Still not remotely high crimes, and the senate acquitted him, just like they are likely to acquit President Trump, who didn't even do that much.

It seemed like Nancy Pelosi understands history better than the mob (squad?) running her party these days, and she initially resisted going down this path until she was muscled into it. Now there is some weird partisan stuff going on.... (stop Bernie again?)

We will see what we see and apparently the new crew didn't study history (impeachment made President Clinton more popular). Surely they don't want to make President Trump more popular......  Interesting times.

JR