The Vaccine

[ruffrecords]

I read a third covid variant has emerged in Brazil , chance or co-incidence it was the third country to be involved in the Oxford/Astra trial , time may tell .

I would not get too worried about it. These viruses mutate all the time. There are already well over a thousand variants already known. The big question is whether the variant is any more infectious or lethal than the others.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Tubetec]

This isnt some theory/conspiracy I dreamt up or pulled out of a hat.
The posibillity of a link between Astra/Oxford trials and the new variants in the UK and South Africa was flagged up to me weeks back by someone I know who works in the sciences as a molecular biologist with a speciality in zoonotic disease and whos directly involved in testing for new variant Covid.

Your quite right to say the virus can mutate to some small degree just by passing from one person to another, I'm not qualified to know what constitutes the difference between a mutation and a variant, only to say a variant must involve changes of a larger magnitude.

Heres an article from a couple of months back pointing out some issues with Ox/As trials,

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/25/business/coronavirus-vaccine-astrazeneca-oxford.html

 

[JohnRoberts]

This isnt some theory/conspiracy I dreamt up or pulled out of a hat.
The posibillity of a link between Astra/Oxford trials and the new variants in the UK and South Africa was flagged up to me weeks back by someone I know who works in the sciences as a molecular biologist with a speciality in zoonotic disease and whos directly involved in testing for new variant Covid.

Your quite right to say the virus can mutate to some small degree just by passing from one person to another, I'm not qualified to know what constitutes the difference between a mutation and a variant, only to say a variant must involve changes of a larger magnitude.

Heres an article from a couple of months back pointing out some issues with Ox/As trials,

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/25/business/coronavirus-vaccine-astrazeneca-oxford.html

It takes effort and resources to inspect the genome of these variants. I suspect more testing would find more variants.

JR 

 

[crazydoc]

A mutation is a change in the ribonucleic acid sequence in the genome of an organism - a random mistake in the process of making a new molecule. Most don't make any difference in the function of the organism, some cause it to be non-viable, and some can be either advantageous or disadvantageous survival-wise (evolution).

A variant is an organism that contains a mutation - same as a "mutant" (but without the monster movie connotation .)

 

[ruffrecords]

A mutation is a change in the ribonucleic acid sequence in the genome of an organism - a random mistake in the process of making a new molecule. Most don't make any difference in the function of the organism, some cause it to be non-viable, and some can be either advantageous or disadvantageous survival-wise (evolution).

A variant is an organism that contains a mutation - same as a "mutant" (but without the monster movie connotation .)

I thought a variant was an organism that contains one or more mutations - I may be wrong.

And most of the variants around contain several different mutations in the RNA. Some in common with other variants and some not. The mutation in the UK that causes a higher infection rate is found also in an African variant and the Brazillian one everyone is now talking about but with different additional mutations most of which are benign. This is what makes it hard to trace the 'source' of a given single RNA mutation because that particular mutation tends to occur in several different variants.

Cheers

Ian

 

[JohnRoberts]

I just read that Indonesia has approved the Chinese vaccine for emergency use after passing a trial with 65% effectiveness. This is even lower than other tests for that same vaccine, but better than the 50% considered necessary.

JR

 

[Bo Deadly]

A mutation is a change in the ribonucleic acid sequence in the genome of an organism - a random mistake in the process of making a new molecule.

At the risk of being pedantic mutations typically occur during DNA replication of an organism and not when making protein molecules if that's what you mean. DNA is the master template for making RNA which are like the blueprints of individual genes for making specific proteins. And a virus is not an organism, it's a pathogen. In the case of an RNA virus the mutation would occur during RNA replication.

 

[Ricardus]

My dad called for an appt for the vaxx. The earliest he could get was April 15th.

 

[crazydoc]

At the risk of being pedantic mutations typically occur during DNA replication of an organism and not when making protein molecules if that's what you mean. DNA is the master template for making RNA which are like the blueprints of individual genes for making specific proteins. And a virus is not an organism, it's a pathogen. In the case of an RNA virus the mutation would occur during RNA replication.

RNA and DNA (ribonucleic acids) are molecules, which was the reference here - nothing said about proteins.

True that a virus is not an organism by the strict biological definition in that it cannot sustain life (capacity to grow, metabolize, respond to stimuli, adapt, and reproduce) outside of a host cell. A virus can be a pathogen (a disease causing agent), but not all viruses are pathogens. There are also a multitude of other pathogens, some of which are organisms, such as bacteria, fungi, protozoa, "worms", etc., and non "organisms" such as viruses and prions.

 

[crazydoc]

My dad called for an appt for the vaxx. The earliest he could get was April 15th.

How old is your  dad? Where does he live?
If New York - Over seven million New Yorkers are now eligible for the vaccine. Eligible groups include doctors, nurses and health care workers, people age 65 and over, first responders, teachers, public transit workers, grocery store workers and public safety workers.

https://covid19vaccine.health.ny.gov/

 

[Tubetec]

Latest scandal to hit the headlines here is staff in a Dublin hospital calling in relatives to use up surplus vaccine doses,
In the absence of a proper IT system to keep track government figures are at best guesswork .
There working on a deal now to pay pharmacy staff with no medical training 60 euros per head to administer vaccinations , nice work if you could get it .

 

[crazydoc]

California pauses giving out shots from one lot of coronavirus vaccine
CDPH said Sunday that fewer than 10 people at a clinic in San Diego who received Covid-19 shots from the lot required medical attention over the span of 24 hours. The state said it was not aware of anyone at any of the other 286 sites who had similar allergic reactions after receiving vaccine from the lot.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/18/health/ca-vaccine-lot-pause/index.html

My Mother-in-law and I got vaccinated with this lot last week. Apparently no one, aside from "less than 10" people at a clinic near San Diego have had an anaphylactoid reaction from this lot. It's a little silly to put it on hold while investigating, since it only happened at one place (which should be investigated) and the reaction is immediate and easily treatable (though scary).
My wife got her shot today, and shortly after she entered, the rest of the people in line were told to go home - they'd run out of vaccine. I think people should at least be informed of the facts and the risks, and allowed to choose to receive the vaccine from that lot or reschedule, if it is the only lot available.

 

[crazydoc]

There working on a deal now to pay pharmacy staff with no medical training 60 euros per head to administer vaccinations , nice work if you could get it .

Do you think they'd pay a doc from the US the same amount? I'd like a nice paid vacation in Ireland - giving 30 shots in one day should do it.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Yesterday I asked my neighbor who works as a pharmacist what the story is for vaccines locally. He said probably March. The state website for making appointments said to check back mid February.

I still think the private sector like CVS, Walgreens, or even Walmart could do a better job distributing vaccines. They already give flu shots and the like.

JR

 

[Tubetec]

Doctors are paid extraordinarily well here in Ireland . Theres cases of G.P.'s here earning over a million in one year from public health patients alone , thats on top of what they can make from private practice,buying and leasing MRI scanners and services to hospitals and kickbacks from pharma.  Its an obscene amount of money by anyones measure.
I know two guys who went on to do medicine, they were 20 pints(of beer) a day men by the time the qualified and were almost in need of new livers . Both now married with kids and settled down but lucky to still be around the way the tore the arse out it with the demon drink 

60 euros for administering two injections , no medical experience required , I should drop in my CV to all the local pharmacies .

 

[JohnRoberts]

Doctors are paid extraordinarily well here in Ireland . Theres cases of G.P.'s here earning over a million in one year from public health patients alone , thats on top of what they can make from private practice,buying and leasing MRI scanners and services to hospitals and kickbacks from pharma.  Its an obscene amount of money by anyones measure.
I know two guys who went on to do medicine, they were 20 pints(of beer) a day men by the time the qualified and were almost in need of new livers . Both now married with kids and settled down but lucky to still be around the way the tore the arse out it with the demon drink 

60 euros for administering two injections , no medical experience required , I should drop in my CV to all the local pharmacies .

Over the years I have tried to pay attention to socialized medicine as implemented by different countries. From a quick search Ireland has a dual system where private healthcare operates side by side with government run public healthcare. In general health professionals are not paid as well when serving in a public health service as compared to private practice. Individuals may pay up for faster service from private practitioners to avoid delays. Public health system delays are a subtle form of rationing where patients may seek out quicker alternatives or die waiting.

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Covid vaccinations here are free, just not available for me right now (reminds me of that old joke about the price of eggs, "I'll sell you a dozen for a lower price, but we don't have any eggs").

My local (Newton County) health department is closed on Wednesdays.... but I expect that calling them would be a waste of time when the state website says no new appointments are being accepted for first jabs, just second follow up injections.
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Moderna is already talking about giving people third injections for higher immunity, but for now let's focus getting more first jabs out there. 

I should be able to continue sheltering in place for a few more months...       

JR

 

[Tubetec]

Generally speaking here Doctors working in public health earn less that their counterparts in private medicine. G.P.'s can play both sides of the fence though, as far as I know they get a once off retainer payment per patient on the medical card (public health) , then each extra visit is claimed for later . A GP could well have a few thousand patients on the books in a sucessful practice , they end up with a nice chunk of cash regardless if the patient attends or not. Another scandal here is that the cost of procedures and hospital stays under the public health is more expensive than private , that must be a function of the massive ineficiencies and waste in the public system here , plus the average public health patient see's a doctor around 8 times per year @2.50 euros per prescription, the average for a person who has to pay cash for docs visits and meds is around 2.5 visits per year. I have public health cover but I almost never need it or use it while many with an addictive nature are screwing the system down into the ground .Maybe its the exact opposite to the States where poor people cant even afford the stuff to save their lives ,here theres no limits to the amount of dope they'll prescribe you at the publics expense.

 

[crazydoc]

California pauses giving out shots from one lot of coronavirus vaccine
CDPH said Sunday that fewer than 10 people at a clinic in San Diego who received Covid-19 shots from the lot required medical attention over the span of 24 hours. The state said it was not aware of anyone at any of the other 286 sites who had similar allergic reactions after receiving vaccine from the lot.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/18/health/ca-vaccine-lot-pause/index.html

My Mother-in-law and I got vaccinated with this lot last week. Apparently no one, aside from "less than 10" people at a clinic near San Diego have had an anaphylactoid reaction from this lot. It's a little silly to put it on hold while investigating, since it only happened at one place (which should be investigated) and the reaction is immediate and easily treatable (though scary).
My wife got her shot today, and shortly after she entered, the rest of the people in line were told to go home - they'd run out of vaccine. I think people should at least be informed of the facts and the risks, and allowed to choose to receive the vaccine from that lot or reschedule, if it is the only lot available.

Update:
A batch of the Moderna coronavirus vaccine that caused possible allergic reactions can now continue to be distributed, officials said.

On the basis of a lengthy discussion of the clinical findings among the seven vaccine recipients (all of whom received treatment and recovered), aided by the three guest experts in allergy and immunology, it was concluded that while one or more of the seven individuals had angioedema, anaphylaxis was not confirmed in any of them and none experienced a life-threatening adverse event following administration of the vaccine.

https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/CDPH%20Document%20Library/COVID-19/Western%20States%20Scientfic%20Review%20Workgroup%20Statement%20on%20Moderna%20Adverse%20Events.pdf

 

[Script]

Good !
___
Read yesterday that jabs have shown effective (in blood taken from clinical trial participants) against an artificial specimen (or something) of the 1.1.7 variant.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The new administration has promised "to manage the hell out of" vaccinations so we can relax.

They have already moved the goal posts from the original plan for 100M people vaccinated in the first 100 days, to 50M people getting two jabs in 100 days.

Amazon has offered to help with vaccine distribution, as long as they can vaccinate their own workers first. I would expect Walmart to be a better partner, as they already have pharmacy vaccination programs for flu shots, etc. 

Wear your mask, wash your hands, and social distance for a while longer.

JR

@crazydoc, glad you're OK, it is probably not that unusual for such adverse reactions, but media is watching this stuff under a magnifying glass.