To DIY or Not?

[dale116dot7]

My wife and I are trying to decide whether to have kids. She's on the 'probably not' side, I'm pretty much on the fence. She is on the 'probably not' side because we are comfortable. But perhaps comfort is not what we need?

What keeps me on the fence is the sorry state of the world and all the crap you hear and see on the news always brings up. Do I want to bring children into this f***ed up world? And part of me says that we are right on the edge of figuring out how to live within our means on our home planet - that we're in the middle of some very positive changes. We've realized these limits and are fumbling around figuring out what to do about them, but we'll figure it out. But then I see the downhill in the economic situation, military conflicts, nuclear weapons, food shortages, tons of conspiracy theories flying around, and say 'maybe not so much on kids'.

In terms of the 'state of the world', yes or no to kids?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Who is going to make the world better, if not your kids?

JR

 

[gyraf]

Agree.

I pretty much feel that the meaning of life (if there is such thing) is mainly having kids that grow up to be just a little bit better than ourselves. And thus will be able to push the world another small bit in the right direction.

Once you have them, you will wonder how you did without. And sometimes how you do with.

Jakob E.

 

[craptical]

Agree with (both) above on all counts. Best thing in my life so far! And I was on that fence for a long time... Too long time. Now we got our second last wednesday, a daughter this time! Very exciting! I almost quit lurking the forum...

Best regards

/Dave

 

[NewYorkDave]

Let me chime in with the minority viewpoint. I never had kids and I don't regret it. I've gotten a lot of "attitude" about it from some people who've made different choices--but as far as I'm concerned, it's none of their f**king business.

Contrary to the mainstream message, you have no duty or obligation to reproduce. Do it only if you honestly feel that you are ready and willing to become a parent. In this matter, above all, you must listen to your own heart and not other people's opinions. You'll know what to do.

 

[Mbira]

n terms of 'state of the world', I don't think having or not having kids is the answer, but the deeper point to me is that you have said your wife says probably not and you are on the fence.  I would say wait until you both are saying "yes!" to have kids.  If you are comfortable now and not sure you want them, how will you feel after four months of no sleep? ;D

That's me speaking as a father of two where my first was not expected and my second was planned.

 

[Svart]

I'm taking the other side on this.

I'm in a place in life where I've finally been able to break all of the bonds of mid-adulthood; no debt besides a mortgage, having most everything I want or need(besides money to pay off the house), friends and family(when I'm feeling like it) and so forth.  I'm a pretty solitary guy and thrive on personal challenges that push me to my limits.  I also have a fairly mellow temper for most things in life except for a few things.  Those things include repetitious questions, messy people, illogic and noise.  Unfortunately those are the things that kids are the best at.

I can at least notice in myself that I *could* possibly be a good parent but honestly don't think I can handle kids at all.  My mother teaches small children and when I'm in town to visit her, she usually guilts me into visiting her at her school.  From the moment I walk into the building to the moment I walk out, it's an exercise in the highest levels of self control, primarily not turning around and running out of the front door or washing my hands 50 times while I'm there.  ;D

I don't feel comfortable around children and their parents in general.  Not only do I feel out of place, I don't have anything to relate to them about.  I don't really think children are in my future, it's not that I don't *want* them, it's that they aren't part of my plans for the future and don't think about it.

Don't let anyone else determine your fate either.  My father of all people is the one really pushing me to have kids for some reason.  Everytime I visit family I get asked when I'm going to bring "Jr." into the world.  If anything, it's put a bad taste in my mouth about the whole thing.  

I've seen more couples end up splitting up due to complications from children; disagreements on how to raise, arguments over money stresses, etc, because they only focus on the child first and not the relationship first.

Take it all with a grain of salt.

 

[skipwave]

I plan to run for public office on the platform "Vasectomy for the Public Health"

That sums up my position.

On the state of the world, these days I'm starting to lean towards "Trepanation for the Public Health"

The only thing that sustains me in dark times is the blackest humor I can find. Somehow if the humor is darker than the reality it lessens the blow from taking a hard look at it all.

 

[Futureman]

But then I see the downhill in the economic situation, military conflicts, nuclear weapons, food shortages, tons of conspiracy theories flying around,

I feel that if you are waiting for a golden period in earths history for an appropriate time to knock up your missus, you might be waiting for a very very long time...

I think if you want kids, it should be damn obvious... don't bring kids into the world if you are just half-arsed about it, that would be such a shame.

Regards
Mike

 

[bugfight]

i fall on the don't have kids side, but i wonder if this leads us into breeding for stupidity.
ha! see? i get it both ways!  have my no kid and eat it too...
err, cake that is... yeah

 

[Ptownkid]

+1000 for kids.

 

[peterc]

I was in the position, in my previous marriage, where I was told I could not have kids as we had been trying for a few months. I was a bit disappointed about this & prepared my self for life without kids.

We split up a few years later & about 6 years after I was told the news, my new girlfriend told me she was PREGNANT! I was very positive about it, a bit unprepared I suppose.

Well, it has been the best thing in my life. Everything has a new meaning, DIY is not that important any longer.... Make no mistake, it is probably he toughest thing I have done physically, sleep deprivation is a gift from hades. But seeing the kid grow & learn is the most rewarding thing in my life.

Dont wait too long if you decide to do it, I will be 64 when my kid hits university which pretty scary.

Peter

 

[dale116dot7]

I'm 37 and she's 31. I'd think we have a couple years to decide but not much more than that.

In a (big) way, we have probably the best life of anyone in history. Have we reached a peak and it's all downhill (rapidly or slowly) from here, or are we finding a new equilibrium? It's been 'doom and gloom' for at least as long as my great-great grandparents (the late 1800's), and we're still here, although imperfectly executed. They were convinced that the second coming was in 1900. It didn't happen, and it didn't happen in 2000 either.

For a while I was worried a lot about 'peak oil' and 'global warming' and pollution but on doing a lot of research on those, I'm not too worried about those any more. The phaseout of fossil fuels can be done over a few decades which is plenty of time, and that phaseout will also deal with the CO2 issue at the same time. Even in the developing world, pollution is being looked at much more seriously - I know that because my day job is involved in this industry and we send a lot of stuff to China and India.

It is more geopolitical and economic issues that are bugging me. The never ending conflict in the middle east, for example. And the fact that we have exceptionally powerful weapons of mass destruction that never should have been built in the first place. But then again, it was pretty scary throughout the 1950's and 1960's, too.

 

[Svart]

Co2 and other "greenhouse" gasses take a back seat to the worst "greenhouse gas" of them all..  Water Vapor.

Water vapor accounts for more than half of the greenhouse effect and is a somewhat positive reinforcement for other greenhouse gasses, such as methane of which more than 50% of which is from normal ocean life and deposits.  This means that the more water vapor in the atmosphere, the more warming occurs, the more warming occurs, the more methane is produced by sea life and released from frozen methane deposits which warm the atmosphere more.  Since warmer air can hold more moisture, the cycle just gets worse.

now that people are focusing on more noxious chemicals, we have created things like catalysts for cars that reduce noxious gasses but release CO2 and water vapor..

It's stupidity at it's highest, cut off the nose to spite the face.

Even though humans only account for less than 1% of total greenhouse gasses, people will always blame each other for the things they cannot understand such as long term climate patterns and so forth.  Many scientists have already proven that a single volcano eruption can do much much worse things to the atmosphere than humans can do in decades.  They've also proven that a lot of the ice core data and climate data has been mis-interpreted and screwed up but nobody really looks at the corrected data.  I still see data being posted from years ago that shows an ice core anomaly that has since been proven as a human mistake but many highly regarded(and paid) scientists keep using it as a basis to further their research(grant money).

If anything, I don't want any kids I have to be exposed to the politics and complete ass-hattery that people have accepted as fact.  The ecosystem will be fine, it'll just change over time like it always has but our children will be subjected to control and manipulation by those who seek to gain something from it(Gore+money+power).

 

[dale116dot7]

Yes, I know about the water vapour vs. CO2 vs. other greenhouse gasses and the ice cores and the 'validation skill not significantly higher than zero' Mann curve, I just didn't want to start discussing that. In some ways, CO2 reduction == less use of fossil fuels == better use of energy == more respect for our home planet == less other pollution, and we should be doing that anyways, using other sources of energy when we can. But that is why I'm not that afraid of climate change in terms of having children which was the point of this thread.

The catalyst is probably the best thing ever from an emissions point of view. NOx (the stuff that makes acid rain and brown smog and causes a lot of respiratory issues) goes from 2500 ppm engine out to maybe 10ppm cat out. CO goes from around 1% down to maybe 50ppm. Unburnt hydrocarbons go down too, but engine-out isn't that bad. CO2 goes up from maybe 7.5% up to 8.2% or so. Water doesn't change much. But the NOx reduction alone makes the catalyst worth it.

As for power and politics, I don't have a problem provided the trickle-down is adequate and some amount of stability is maintained. When the top gets too greedy and over-controlling, that's problems. The current economic thing to me indicates that the top was getting too greedy, and maybe they know it. The question is whether they learn from it, adjust, and be a bit less greedy, or just mess stuff up.

 

[sahib]

To look at it this way, you don't have to have a religous view point.

But if a soul is meant to be coming to this world through you and your wife it is gonna happen, no matter what.

However, I could not agree more with JR.

 

[sonicmook56]

My lady is going to buy me a vasectomy for my up coming 27th birthday.  

I don't really like kids for the exact same reasons Svart has and doubt I would have the ability to deal with a crying kid.  My lifestyle is pretty much set in stone, I wish not to change it.

My sister has 3 kids.  That's enough to replace her, her husband, and myself.  She is probably going to make more. ???

 

[okgb]

In a way , there is never a " right " time  [ to wait for  ]
what's built in , is that most people become instantly selfless
because why would you do anything else
[ as in taking care of your kids is the natural & right thing to do ]

On another hand it's a Love you will never know otherwise , and
as a bonus you learn more about yourself as well .

If you're done with any rock'n'roll careers , then no problem
Having teenage girls , i can say it does get trying
but taking care of them is taking care of a part of the world
and that's a step in the right direction

best wishes & happy practicing !

 

[seavote]

maybe you cut history class in high school .  the world has always been "f#!#@#%^ed  up. wars, slavery torture, greed,crooked politicians.
as far as i know, large amounts of people have also had compassion for each other. worked together for selfless reasons given there lives for what is good and right. from my experience this group is in the majority. my wife and i have added 2 more people to this group and i'm very proud of them.
this world will never be perfect but the hopes and dreams and adventure of trying to get there with people you love makes it well worth it to be in this world.
im an atheist but you have to believe in something. i believe in hopes ,dream and humankind with all the faults and warts.
Kids.... the most wonderful part of my life.
last week i was at a retirement party for someone at work. an old timer was there who we all know is dying of lung cancer. i asked how his kids were. after telling me what they were doing. he added that he never wanted  children but his second wife  did. "having them was the best thing i ever did with my life"
i'll leave it at that. and good luck no matter what you decide.

 

[craptical]

Having teenage girls , i can say it does get trying

And if you have a rock´n´roll carreer, you´ll have to deal with them anyway!

;D