Transformers...

[JohnRoberts]

If Rupert Neve says you have to be able to relax to it, he's not talking about a measurement.  In my view he's an artist, and a great engineer.  I can't say with certainty but he seems like a good person, from what I've seen in interviews.

He also said the whole body is an ear.

He uses transformers to great extent.  And he listens to and incorporates feedback about things people say they can hear but that he didn't realize could be heard/perceived/felt.

Getting back to the first point about relaxing to it... that is in no way, shape or form implying that the listening experience isn't important or that changes in the design don't impact the sound.  The listening experience is of critical importance.  Not everyone experiences it the same way.  Not everyone has 20/20 vision, not everyone interprets sound the same way.  Some are more sensitive to it.  For those who are sensitive to sound, rhythm and musical energy, to be told they're imagining something when they are not is beyond ignorant and rude.

I think at the heart of all this debate is one thing.  Designers who want to do their best work on paper, and who are unwilling to do anything less than what they consider superior on paper, to satisfy what an artist says is or isn't to their liking.  They view it as beneath their capability and don't agree with doing anything less than what they consider superior.  I don't like that approach to anything, but I do understand wanting to be at your best and wanting to improve.  But, there is only so far to take this audio stuff.. go too far one way and you lose something from the other way.  What goes up, must come down.  Meet in the middle.

I'm the kind of guy who likes wooden hockey sticks and who doesn't think they're inferior to composite.  When they switched the sticks, the game changed.  Some people love the way the game is played nowadays, but I agree with Bobby Orr.  I think it's now too fast, too edgy.  I don't like advertising on the boards, or tech on the bench either. 

Sometimes, clean enough is clean enough.  Good line Paul Gold.

Adam

After several decades the "golden ears" - "meter reader" debate refuses to die.  :'(  Here is today's anecdote from back when I was developing my last large recording console. 

Hartley brought in a famous record producer (who also plays bass), to help me "voice" the channel strip EQ. :  I won't name drop but even the young pukes around here would probably recognize him. He had (has) a career as a musician before getting into record producing and working with multiple very high profile artists on album projects.

It began with a meeting where he and Hartley, both guitar players, talked about sound quality in rather unscientific terms (including "balls" and more such muso terms that do not translate to objective metrics.) For our first listening test he was wearing a big floppy hat... There is no way that hat did not shade the frequency response getting to his ears, and alter pinnae transforms in his outer ears.

I didn't embarrass myself and queer the deal by saying I had no idea WTF they were talking about, or questioning the hat. This guy's blessing would help us sell consoles in multiple markets.  I can't argue with his success (the artists he recorded are more famous than him so he was doing something right).

I spent some more one on one time with him, then promised to send him a prototype strip to check out in his own studio where he could use his own familiar source material and listen through his own playback monitors.

I was already confident in the strip EQ topology... It used a wein bridge approach that is well regarded for very low noise and very low distortion.  It had sweep frequency on all four bands. I dialed in the Q (bandwidth) to be the same as a well regarded API EQ at full boost/cut (I don't remember which model). 

Reading between the lines I picked up on the fact that he played bass, and I would need to customize something  for him, to give us a hook to hang his floppy hat on. I tweaked the adjustment range of the low mid sweep EQ an octave lower giving him more control in the low bass region (speculating that a bass player might appreciate that). 

Long story short, he loved it and we were ready to stick a fork in the console design.

JR 

PS: I just searched him and his current west coast tour is cancelled because of COVID.

 

[crazydoc]

Severe thread drift

You need a measuring tool.

I asked my supervising resident how to determine hypotrophic or atrophied testes, and he said "If they're smaller than yours."

 

[user 37518]

You need a measuring tool.

;D ;D ;D ;D

 

[JohnRoberts]

You need a measuring tool.

We  need a like button...  ;D

JR

 

[scott2000]

giggle every time you mark out your chassis....

 

[john12ax7]

Audio design is part art and part science, requires both measuring and listening.  It's a balancing act knowing when to lean to which side. An extreme approach in either direction is unwise imo.

 

[user 37518]

Audio design is part art and part science, requires both measuring and listening.  It's a balancing act knowing when to lean to which side. An extreme approach in either direction is unwise imo.

True, however in my opinion, I have never had the experience of having a piece of gear that measures great but sounds bad, specially something like amplifiers. Microphones are a different beast.

 

[pucho812]

If it measures correct but sounds like shit, you measured the wrong thing.

 

[user 37518]

If it measures correct but sounds like sh*t, you measured the wrong thing.

;D agreed!

 

[emrr]

Measuring, yeah.  But anyone involved in manufacturing production full time as a job knows it's a bit of a 'sod off' to suggest the average studio person or DIY'er has the tools or time to assess EVERY possible contributing  aspect to sonics.  Even as a paid professional equipment maker, 'good enough, it works and passes the failure cycle tests' is usually the order of the day.  Only when a buggery intermittent complaint surfaces with frequency will manpower be applied to extensive parameter testing on the order suggested.  Professionals are relying just as much on a form of auditory muscle memory most of the time.  It's entirely unreasonable to suggest otherwise.  Most extensive testing in high volume production will be about (expensive) failure mechanisms, NOT sonics. 

 

[user 37518]

Measuring, yeah.  But anyone involved in manufacturing production full time as a job knows it's a bit of a 'sod off' to suggest the average studio person or DIY'er has the tools or time to assess EVERY possible contributing  aspect to sonics.  Even as a paid professional equipment maker, 'good enough, it works and passes the failure cycle tests' is usually the order of the day.  Only when a buggery intermittent complaint surfaces with frequency will manpower be applied to extensive parameter testing on the order suggested.  Professionals are relying just as much on a form of auditory muscle memory most of the time.  It's entirely unreasonable to suggest otherwise.  Most extensive testing in high volume production will be about (expensive) failure mechanisms, NOT sonics.

Of course Im not saying that you should record with the Audio Precision unit right next to you. In fact most of the time you dont have to measure things because manufacturers have already done this, frequency response graphs, THD levels, etc... all of that counts. Like I said, microphones are a different beast, the frequency response graph tells you little about how the mike sounds, specially since most recording microphones are far from flat, but again, in stuff like amplifiers or preamps, a low THD and IMD reading should translate into a good sounding amp. Anything at 0.001% THD or below, not always, but usually means transformless solid state, and thats what I seem to prefer.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Measuring, yeah.  But anyone involved in manufacturing production full time as a job knows it's a bit of a 'sod off' to suggest the average studio person or DIY'er has the tools or time to assess EVERY possible contributing  aspect to sonics.  Even as a paid professional equipment maker, 'good enough, it works and passes the failure cycle tests' is usually the order of the day.  Only when a buggery intermittent complaint surfaces with frequency will manpower be applied to extensive parameter testing on the order suggested.  Professionals are relying just as much on a form of auditory muscle memory most of the time.  It's entirely unreasonable to suggest otherwise.  Most extensive testing in high volume production will be about (expensive) failure mechanisms, NOT sonics.

Not clear but are you talking about manufacturing equipment, or using equipment?

I have some experience with high volume equipment manufacturing.  Music production, not so much.

JR

 

[lukemt]

Total noob question, but I have a couple of the VTB2281s to try doing what he suggests in the article, just out of curiosity really.

If I want to solder straight onto the 150 ohm primaries and 600 ohm secondaries, as he suggests will give “more colour and saturation” which pots would I solder onto?

Thanks in advance

 

[Jim Boom]

This is a funny thread. Great to see so many different views.
That aside, if you can’t measure it, you can’t hear it.

 

[pucho812]

This is a funny thread. Great to see so many different views.
That aside, if you can’t measure it, you can’t hear it.

If it measures right and sounds like shit you measured the wrong thing.

 

[paradox]

Witam, posiadam dwa transformatory Carnhill VTB2281 i chciałbym je wykorzystać do podbarwienia dźwięku (MOJO BOX). Podłączone zostaną do konwertera adda – Rme ADI 8PRO, który ma impedancję wejściową 10 kOhm i impedancję wyjściową 47 Ohm. Czy powinienem dodać rezystor przed transformatorem...? Jakie parametry powinien mieć rezystor...?

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Hi, I have two Carnhill VTB2281 transformers and I would like to use them for sound coloring (MOJO BOX). They will be connected to adda converter - Rme ADI 8PRO, which have an input impedance of 10kOhm and output impedance of 47kOhm.

I very much doubt the output impedance of your converter is 47kohm.

Should I add a resistor before the transformer...?

Should, no, but could, yes.

What parameters should the resistor have...?

There is no rule for dirtifiers.

 

[okgb]

No one mentioned Millennia adding an Xfmr for color on the STT-1 ?, They almost got as flowerly in the description as mesa boogie, I believe they said " euphoric " and adding it had something to do with fred forsell leaving them. I don't recall if they said the transformer had a " low end leakage " ? or something about it being inefficient?

" TRANSFORMER SELECT SWITCH "XFMR IN" A pushbutton switch which, when depressed and illuminated, places the Millennia MIT-01 audio path transformer in the front-end circuit. When used with high level signals, such as when using a pair of STT-1 units for mixdown applications, the engineer may notice a marked 'enhancement' in sonic signature when the transformer is inserted. We have designed this transformer to provide a unique, "fat" sonic coloration with condensor microphones which gives the engineer a richer, fuller, 'bigger-than-life' image when used with aggressive sources such as drums and electric bass.

Audio designers know that audio transformers add various types of sonic color (distortion) to an audio path — especially at high dynamic levels and wide frequency excursions. This is why, to date, Millennia has avoided audio path transformers. In our opinion, audio transformers simply have no place in a critical signal path when acoustic realism and dynamic stability are primary objectives. That said, it is also widely known that audio transformer distortion can add "artistic personality" to audio signals. For decades, creative engineers and producers have selected various transformer-coupled audio paths to achieve a marked sonic signature. A good example is found in Rupert Neve's original Class-A, all-discrete designs from the 1960s. Mr. Neve's early console modules (1272, 1073, etc.) are in demand today due to their ability to "cut through" a mix and present a "bigger than life" sonic signature. Hugely unnatural, and delightfully so! What causes these audio artifacts? It's predominantly the transformers. We can thank Rupert's old audio path transformers for most of that familiar euphonic coloration and pleasing distortion. Millennia enjoys a fine collection of these 1960's era console modules. We use them on pop recording dates (by choice, however, more than 90% of our recording schedule remains acoustic classical, jazz, and ethno-eclectic; where we use HV-3 and M-2b micamps exclusively). We know intimately the "sound" that a purposefully designed audio path transformer can deliver. It is with this understanding and mission that Millennia presents our first product with an audio path transformer. Numerous listening tests were performed on a wide range of off-the-shelf transformers. We couldn't find a stock transformer that had the particular "sound" we were searching for. We then embarked upon a design effort to create our own unique transformer. Developed for its ability to deliver a "bigger than life" sonic signature when hit high input levels, the new Millennia MIT-01 audio input transformer is not intended for acoustic reality nor musical accuracy. Rather, when used with higher input levels, the MIT01 offers a colorful sonic personality that engineers and producers of popular music will likely find both highly artistic and eminently useful. This transformer can be switched in and out of the front-end audio path; selectable via a front panel switch (see #4). The transformer can be used with all input types (microphones, line-level, and instrument-DI), but will likely be most sonically pronounced when used with condensor microphones. When used with nominal input levels, the transformer exhibits modest sonic coloration. The remaining functional areas of the STT-1, including the vacuum tube or solid state EQ, dynamics, and output sections, remain inherently transformerless. ("

 

[paradox]

I very much doubt the output impedance of your converter is 47kohm.

Should, no, but could, yes.

There is no rule for dirtifiers.

.....yes indeed it has Output Line impedance: 47 Ohm
Thank you for correcting

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I believe they said " euphoric "

Not really, euphonic rather.