Pultec MEQ-5 output transformer,
single ended version of the HS-50,
15K to 600
no DC
single ended version of the HS-50,
15K to 600
no DC
Triad HS-50
- Thread starter CJ
- Start date
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inject V-ac into pri and measure current, plot may resemble a BH curve, or not,
this thing craps out at 21 volts pri at 20 Hz, 10.5 volts at 10 Hz, which is 14.68 DBM using a 15K pri,
kilo gauss at saturation is about 4.84, which is about the same saturation flux as Supermalloy-80Ni,
they say Max Level 26 DBM, to avoid saturation at 26 DBM you would need to spec that rating at about 75 Hz, which is why you might like the sound of this transformer at the low end, ;D
10 Hz primary level test>
this thing craps out at 21 volts pri at 20 Hz, 10.5 volts at 10 Hz, which is 14.68 DBM using a 15K pri,
kilo gauss at saturation is about 4.84, which is about the same saturation flux as Supermalloy-80Ni,
they say Max Level 26 DBM, to avoid saturation at 26 DBM you would need to spec that rating at about 75 Hz, which is why you might like the sound of this transformer at the low end, ;D
10 Hz primary level test>
Attachments
these F lams are stacked 2 x 2, but they alternate the direction, so you flip one over on the horizontal and stack vertical, 
how are F lams different from EI lams?
1) self shielding- the gap is inside the coil, flux tends to fringe out from the gap area, in an EI lam, the fringe area is on the outside of the coil and may cause cross talk in adjacent coils of other transformers, by having the gap inside the coil, you benefit from the copper coil surrounding the gap as the copper will shield the fringe flux, kid of like using mu cans layered with copper to prevent flux fields from entering a transformer,
2) with an EI lam set, you have the grain of the E and I sections running at a 90 degree angle from each other, with the F lam, the grain runs the same way around the lamination, EI lams are stamped in a "scrapless" manner which means the I lam comes out of the stamped window of the E lam, which means that the I bar, when rotated 90 degrees to match up with the E lam, gets it's grain rotated also. so you get a bit more perm with the F lam,
ratio of tongue to stack ht is very pronounced in this coil,
runs about 2.2 to 1, stack to tongue,
this can influence HF response as you have more surface area of the copper wire which forms a larger capacitor, they wanted a big stack so the nickel would hold up at low freqs,
how are F lams different from EI lams?
1) self shielding- the gap is inside the coil, flux tends to fringe out from the gap area, in an EI lam, the fringe area is on the outside of the coil and may cause cross talk in adjacent coils of other transformers, by having the gap inside the coil, you benefit from the copper coil surrounding the gap as the copper will shield the fringe flux, kid of like using mu cans layered with copper to prevent flux fields from entering a transformer,
2) with an EI lam set, you have the grain of the E and I sections running at a 90 degree angle from each other, with the F lam, the grain runs the same way around the lamination, EI lams are stamped in a "scrapless" manner which means the I lam comes out of the stamped window of the E lam, which means that the I bar, when rotated 90 degrees to match up with the E lam, gets it's grain rotated also. so you get a bit more perm with the F lam,
ratio of tongue to stack ht is very pronounced in this coil,
runs about 2.2 to 1, stack to tongue,
this can influence HF response as you have more surface area of the copper wire which forms a larger capacitor, they wanted a big stack so the nickel would hold up at low freqs,
Attachments
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coil overheated?
no, dark enamel was common in the old days, \
unwinding the sec, interlayer insl used between every layer, along with thicker insl between pri and sec layers, pri-sec insl uses poly combined with KP, poly for voltage breakdown, KP for cheap spacing to lower capacitance and also to wick up wax during coil processing,
notice generous winding margins to prevent arcing, 20 KC will arc better than 60 Hz, and this is an output which may see 300 volt spikes,
no, dark enamel was common in the old days, \
unwinding the sec, interlayer insl used between every layer, along with thicker insl between pri and sec layers, pri-sec insl uses poly combined with KP, poly for voltage breakdown, KP for cheap spacing to lower capacitance and also to wick up wax during coil processing,
notice generous winding margins to prevent arcing, 20 KC will arc better than 60 Hz, and this is an output which may see 300 volt spikes,
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interlayer insl , very thin, maybe 0.5 mil or 1 mil,
these coils are wound maybe 15 or 20 on a stick, so a big piece of paper is drawn down to the coils and wound with a slight overlap, then the coils are cut with a saw,
overlaps are staggered around the coil so that they do not build up,
these coils are wound maybe 15 or 20 on a stick, so a big piece of paper is drawn down to the coils and wound with a slight overlap, then the coils are cut with a saw,
overlaps are staggered around the coil so that they do not build up,
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you can use a heat gun to loosen up the paper,
pri wire has a lighter enamel, this stuff is as thin as guitar pickup wire, calling it #46,
smaller wire means less capacitance, it has more DCR but we don't care because the tube plate resistance will trump that,
25 layers, amazing work, each layer insulated, no crossovers, no kinks, perfect shape retained, nowadays everything is bobbin wound so this is a lost art, delicate handwork required = woman winders, and precision machinery and good wire,
pri wire has a lighter enamel, this stuff is as thin as guitar pickup wire, calling it #46,
smaller wire means less capacitance, it has more DCR but we don't care because the tube plate resistance will trump that,
25 layers, amazing work, each layer insulated, no crossovers, no kinks, perfect shape retained, nowadays everything is bobbin wound so this is a lost art, delicate handwork required = woman winders, and precision machinery and good wire,
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25 layers will generate some force due to wire tension, wrap 30 turns of wire around your finger and watch it turn blue,
this poor layer has 2,600 turns wrapped around it, partial core tube collapse is possible, turns a slightly convex tube into a slightly concave tube, this loosens up the windings,
convex tube used to provide strength, like arches in a brick building, thin shims are added to the former on the sides to create the arch, with a tube with sides from this 2.2 stack to tongue ratio, it is sometimes hard to keep the long sides from caving in, this is where nylon bobbins win out over layered paper coils,
this poor layer has 2,600 turns wrapped around it, partial core tube collapse is possible, turns a slightly convex tube into a slightly concave tube, this loosens up the windings,
convex tube used to provide strength, like arches in a brick building, thin shims are added to the former on the sides to create the arch, with a tube with sides from this 2.2 stack to tongue ratio, it is sometimes hard to keep the long sides from caving in, this is where nylon bobbins win out over layered paper coils,
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here is the start of the coil which is a secondary,
notice that there is no tape holding down the wire, to do so would cause a slight bump which would get amplified as the coil is wound, ending up as a distorted coil,
also, to tape down 15 or 20 starts on a stick of coils would be a hassle, that might be double sided tape on the former, hard to tell after the wax gets in there during processing,
notice that there is no tape holding down the wire, to do so would cause a slight bump which would get amplified as the coil is wound, ending up as a distorted coil,
also, to tape down 15 or 20 starts on a stick of coils would be a hassle, that might be double sided tape on the former, hard to tell after the wax gets in there during processing,
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here is the cut sheet on the lam,
they also make a version of this lam with a built in 0.010" gap in the legs, style 51FB, probably for polarized steel use, the tongue is square, not staggered, this is so the tongue butts up against each other without sliding, which would cause variations in the gap,
Mag Met makes a 6 mil and a 14 mil thick lam, Triad probably used a different vendor as their lams measure out to about 7.5 mil,
they also make a version of this lam with a built in 0.010" gap in the legs, style 51FB, probably for polarized steel use, the tongue is square, not staggered, this is so the tongue butts up against each other without sliding, which would cause variations in the gap,
Mag Met makes a 6 mil and a 14 mil thick lam, Triad probably used a different vendor as their lams measure out to about 7.5 mil,
Attachments
as an added bonus to the retentive, ;D
here are the counts for the primary, this is an unwinding tally, so just reverse the order to wind, so L1 will be your outermost layer and L25 the first layer to wind,
notice the partial layer of 67 turns as the last pri layer, this is probably no accident, it lowers the pri to sec capacitance by cutting in half the surface area of the last layer, so your distance from sec to pri to a full layer of 134 turns will be greater as the full layer is buried under the partial layer and a layer of insulation,
here are the counts for the primary, this is an unwinding tally, so just reverse the order to wind, so L1 will be your outermost layer and L25 the first layer to wind,
notice the partial layer of 67 turns as the last pri layer, this is probably no accident, it lowers the pri to sec capacitance by cutting in half the surface area of the last layer, so your distance from sec to pri to a full layer of 134 turns will be greater as the full layer is buried under the partial layer and a layer of insulation,
Attachments
Cutterwoller
Member
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2012
- Messages
- 16
Hey CJ,
Whats the modern (magmet) equivalent for this? Is it Superperm 80? Superperm 80 = Supermalloy right?
Or is it 50/50 which is Superperm 49?
Cheers!
Whats the modern (magmet) equivalent for this? Is it Superperm 80? Superperm 80 = Supermalloy right?
Or is it 50/50 which is Superperm 49?
Cheers!
maybe Super Q would be the best for an output,
we ended up with a perm of only about 25,000 with the Triad, maybe the F lams have something to do with this, sampling some Super Q lams would be a safe bet, then winding a coil ad checking the inductance against the curve posted up a few posts, if inductance is too high then you could bump down to some 49 alloy.
we ended up with a perm of only about 25,000 with the Triad, maybe the F lams have something to do with this, sampling some Super Q lams would be a safe bet, then winding a coil ad checking the inductance against the curve posted up a few posts, if inductance is too high then you could bump down to some 49 alloy.
