Truely flat response DIY monitors?

[miszt]

I've seen lots of plans for various DIY monitors, including PMC's, but I'm wondering if they really are worth the effort?

Can anyone recommend a DIY monitor set? something that provides the same clarity/depth/flat response as top end models...


I use a combination of monitors in my studio, each has their benefits, none of them are perfect, but i know them well enough to know where I am in a mix, in comparison to where I want to be; but I always feel like i want more and more detail, but i don't have 20k to spend on speakers right now lol

 

[Andy Peters]

but i don't have 20k to spend on speakers right now lol

You can spend the money on speakers and start working immediately, or you can spend the money on woodworking tools and setting up a shop. Your choice.

 

[miszt]

I don't really understand what your point is tbh?

its not the production of the cabinets which is expensive or difficult, it is the design/engineering of them which takes the time and money, and is why they cost so much

there are already PMC plans on the net which are not difficult to build at all, what I am asking, is for other recommended plans/designs for me to consider, that have proven quality, before starting building (i'm not interested in learning how to design my own cabinets...I have more than enough to deal with in the studio lol)


20K on wood working tools? damn lol i'm not trying to build a ship

 

[Michael Tibes]

If you have some skills and time, then you can actually achieve a lot by diying your speakers. I did it for 'big speakers', starting from a plan for a passive design from a german magazine (hobby hifi) and then activated the system with a behringer dsp crossover which I also used for the equing (which will be needed in nearly all cases). It took quite some time, probably a few weeks, for building and setting it up, but it is really a very usable system. It helps me a lot, it's huge and the bass response is so much cleaner than with normal small speakers. I can finally hear what happens in the bass region, not only that something happens.

Actually I don't think it is a stupid idea to build speakers that way because they can be set up and aligned in the final position in the room - which is something that needs to be done anyway with any speaker unless the room itself is perfect and huge, has no console (which has an incredible effect on the sound) and so on. Back in the day I spent  days aligning huge Quested systems and only a few really turned out better than what I did now for a fraction of the cost. And yes, this was a budget project, hence the behringer (which is surprisingly good for the money).

Unfortunately the room-specific customization makes it hard to communicate things as a finished project, but I wouldn't mind sharing the original project if there was any interest and we find a way around the legal issues (I don't want to post magazine copies here). Also there would still be huge options for improvements and experimentation, but I'm back to making music for now...

Michael

 

[miszt]

I'd definitely be interested in reading anything you have to hand, thanks for the input!

I'm certainly not a carpenter, but I managed to build myself a room-inside-a-room, and fully treated the space with my own built bass traps/resonators/absorbers/etc, so I recon i can at least give it a good go building speakers!


I think I'd like to start out building a big bass cab, that's the one area I actually "need" at the moment, I have sub, but its nowhere near as detailed as I would like


if you know the issue number and date, I'm happy to do the work and find the article online (or try at least lol) - if they have PDF'd back issues and put them online, then I don't think there is likely to be any copyright issue


(edit: actually I seem to have skipped over the "german" bit, so finding the article wont be that easy for me after all lol)

 

[Moby]

Of course, DIY studio monitors.  10y ago I was questioning myself about the same and finally i decided to go with it.  Check here http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=12511.msg330463;topicseen#msg330463
After few months of "fine tuning"  I ended with really accurate and great sounding system. In past few y. I builded few more main monitoring systems and all of them works really great. Go ahead and share your results here

 

[miszt]

great link thanks!

I'll definitely post a build diary and test results once I decide on a model


one thing that does interest me allot is being able to tune the speaker to the room, which is already pretty flat after months of tuning it up with treatment

 

[Moby]

I can recommend  DSP based crossover. Later, when u finally tune the system it can be replaced with analog one. In the process of fine tunning small eq flattening is recommended to customise your system  to rhe room. Good luck!

 

[miszt]

initially I was planning on using my DAW to low pass the output for the sub, and use that to tune it up and find the best crossover point; tbh I haven't given it much thought, although I was planning on building a very simply crossover/low-pass filter, although i don't know anything at all about speaker design, so have no idea if that's the appropriate way to go about it lol

being able to tune things up very tightly to the room does seem to be one of the biggest bonuses of DIY monitors!

managed to get some advice from some well seasoned engineers, and I'm currently looking at a Beyma 18inch driver (or an old Goodmans driver if i can find one), which has a nice frequency response all the way down to 20Hz (the goodmans does 18hz), and i'm looking at a sealed cab, still haven't worked out the details yet tho - after that I'll be trying my hand at a 2 or 3 way speaker system to match it (3 way cabs are apparently extremely difficult, so i'll probably go with 2)

 

[Michael Tibes]

A closed cab sounds very interesting, it would be the next thing I'd like to try. I imagine getting rid of the reflex stuff might improve bass clarity, but all I really now is that I know very little 
I can really recommend the Behringer Ultradrive Pro as an experimentation platform. Of course things might sound better with a proper analog crossover, but I actually still use it and I'm happy with it. Their digital stuff has really come along the past years and it's still pretty cheap.
The power amps are also interesting of course, I'm still stuck with my experimentation setup which consist of 3 hifi amps that were lying around. Still trying to find time to build some power amps, I bought a bunch of chinese modules a while ago that need power supplies and casings.
The magazine is called hobby hifi and it's probably the only mag not being available as a pdf. I have a feeling it's just one nerdy guy doing nothing but developing speakers for the past 3 decades... I've found that link here from a shop which shows the project: http://www.lautsprechershop.de/index_hifi_de.htm?http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/hifi_pa.htm
Anyway, I always enjoy reading the mag (probably have been for already 30 years). Apart from the projects the speaker measurements also seem quite interesting.
If I'd do things again I'd choose different drivers (especially the tweeter), the ones in there are pretty directional which is not ideal if you have to go to the side of the room to tweak some gear in a rack. But still it's a huge improvement over anything I ever owned before. And they can do pretty high levels, so recording egits in the control room is actually fun.
I've attached a crappy picture of my control room with the speakers to get an impression.

Michael

 

[pvision]

Back in the day I spent  days aligning huge Quested systems and only a few really turned out better than what I did now for a fraction of the cost

Of course, all the time spent back then will help you now… One of the problems with making speakers that sound "right" is to know what "right" is. Years of experience definitely helps

Nick Froome

 

[miszt]

A closed cab sounds very interesting, it would be the next thing I'd like to try. I imagine getting rid of the reflex stuff might improve bass clarity, but all I really now is that I know very little 
I can really recommend the Behringer Ultradrive Pro as an experimentation platform. Of course things might sound better with a proper analog crossover, but I actually still use it and I'm happy with it. Their digital stuff has really come along the past years and it's still pretty cheap.
The power amps are also interesting of course, I'm still stuck with my experimentation setup which consist of 3 hifi amps that were lying around. Still trying to find time to build some power amps, I bought a bunch of chinese modules a while ago that need power supplies and casings.
The magazine is called hobby hifi and it's probably the only mag not being available as a pdf. I have a feeling it's just one nerdy guy doing nothing but developing speakers for the past 3 decades... I've found that link here from a shop which shows the project: http://www.lautsprechershop.de/index_hifi_de.htm?http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/hifi_pa.htm
Anyway, I always enjoy reading the mag (probably have been for already 30 years). Apart from the projects the speaker measurements also seem quite interesting.
If I'd do things again I'd choose different drivers (especially the tweeter), the ones in there are pretty directional which is not ideal if you have to go to the side of the room to tweak some gear in a rack. But still it's a huge improvement over anything I ever owned before. And they can do pretty high levels, so recording egits in the control room is actually fun.
I've attached a crappy picture of my control room with the speakers to get an impression.

Michael

nice info thanks! the finish on the speakers, from what I can tell in the pics, looks very nice, is that pre-laminated melamine type wood, or something else?

Do you think using an external crossover is a better option than simply letting my DAW do the work? it seems like I would have more control, and more importantly, more accuracy and options, if I use a DAW to filter the output to the sub - I want to use the DAW to find the perfect crossover point, and then build the simplest analog low-pass filter I can once I've worked out the extact crossover point digitally

If I had the time to build subs and full range cabs in one go, that would be ideal, but for now, I'll just stick with a nice detailed sub and go from there...after all, i might turn out to be terrible at building speakers haha

Back in the day I spent  days aligning huge Quested systems and only a few really turned out better than what I did now for a fraction of the cost

Of course, all the time spent back then will help you now… One of the problems with making speakers that sound "right" is to know what "right" is. Years of experience definitely helps

Nick Froome

this is a good point, i do have plenty of mix experience (both in the studio and stage), so I have a fair idea of what I'm aiming for - that's not to say my first attempt is likely to come close to what i actually want lol but i'm not going to rush this job, i'll be doing lots of research, tuning the cabs and picking drivers to the suit the room, using both technical means, and my ears to get the balance right

I'm quite excited by the prospect tbh

 

[Andy Peters]

Do you think using an external crossover is a better option than simply letting my DAW do the work?

A dedicated external DSP box for the crossover makes a lot of sense as opposed to doing it all in the DAW.

For starters, you need to use a multi-output interface. And that means multiple DAW buses, with the correct DSP plug-ins on each, and that uses CPU horsepower you'd otherwise use for the actual mix. And then you have to build up a mix stereo bus, and that bus has to feed all of the monitor outputs (hi left, mid left, hi right, mid right, sub maybe) in the correct proportion.

And you have to do that for every single project on which you wish to use the monitors.

If you want to use different monitors? I suppose you can use another pair of outputs on your interface and assign another bus to them, and mute the "main" bus and use this "alternate" bus. Same for headphones mix.

It gets real ugly real quick.

 

[Moby]

The very firat issue u will have with DAW improvised croasover will be turn on thump. It can easilly damage your speakers. All DSP crsw have delayed start option to help u with that. Other issue will be plugins for  choosing right type of slope. Choosing LR or Besel will change the charachter if your apeakers. All that optuons u have under the DsP customizes rossoversm I highly  recommend DSP option.

 

[miszt]

at the moment I have 2 pairs of monitors and a set of 5.1 monitors, running out of 10 outputs (as I don't have monitor switch, so I'm used to doing these things in the box)

my monitors (power) is switched on/off using switches on my console, after my DAW has started up and I've selected the outputs - thump is never going to be an issue, that's a habit I got into a long time ago (actually i think its the first thing I was taught the moment I walked into a studio for the first time lol 2nd thing was "don't touch anything")

(eventually I want to cut the speakers down to just 5.1 (which i want to build, starting with .1 then 2.1, then 5.1) and a separate pair of references, probably my yamahas)

the slope is an interesting point, but again, that's something I will want to play around with anyway, because I'll need to know that information when i come to design and build an analog crossover

setting up a 2.1 project and using multi-out isn't a big deal, i already have 5.1 empty projects setup for various non-surround DAW's, when i don't want/need nuendo


I'll have a look at DSP options anyway tho, thanks for the input guys

 

[Moby]

Wow , u have serious ritual before starting a session In my fascility I have 5-7 engeeners which I have to trust so that option is out of the question Anyways, to save u some time about DSP hunt, pleaase check the Hypex DLCP, miniDSP, or WAF-audio Najda. All of them can serve better or the same and cheaper than DAW option. Good luck

 

[miszt]

Wow , u have serious ritual before starting a session In my fascility I have 5-7 engeeners which I have to trust so that option is out of the question Anyways, to save u some time about DSP hunt, pleaase check the Hypex DLCP, miniDSP, or WAF-audio Najda. All of them can serve better or the same and cheaper than DAW option. Good luck

lol its not half as much work as it sounds, just a matter of opening the right blank project file, with the routing that I want, and switching the monitors on

I am only just starting to move into working with hardware in my own studio, for sure if I was dealing with all the same tools as hardware, it would be a nightmare lol working in the box does have its benefits

thanks will have a look at the DSP options; anything which will do the job better is definitely worth checking out, thanks!

 

[shot]

You know, cheap option for DSP crossover could be Behringer's iNuke amp.
I know it's very unpopular mentioning B-name, but I must admit I like this amp! (duh...sorry,  I know...)
They have very nice DSP option in some models and it's super cheap.
I've built Hypex also but never compared iNuke to it in the same room, but iNuke won over my previous A-class amp that cost almost five times when new. But maybe it's the A-class vs D-class debate and I don't want to go into that!
Anyway, try it! It's cheap, sounds good and has DSP inside!

 

[miszt]

You know, cheap option for DSP crossover could be Behringer's iNuke amp.
I know it's very unpopular mentioning B-name, but I must admit I like this amp! (duh...sorry,  I know...)
They have very nice DSP option in some models and it's super cheap.
I've built Hypex also but never compared iNuke to it in the same room, but iNuke won over my previous A-class amp that cost almost five times when new. But maybe it's the A-class vs D-class debate and I don't want to go into that!
Anyway, try it! It's cheap, sounds good and has DSP inside!

thanks for the info! will keep it in mind, although I've not had a single good experience with Behringer myself, i know several engineers who use their kit very happily so I don't write them off completely

I'm planning on matching the amp with the monitors when i get to that point, perhaps even building one myself if its feasible to get a nice clean signal and flat response (it looks like my entire studio is going to be DIY within 5 years haha)

 

[shot]

And on the same topic - I really dig the idea of building own monitors!
I've been reading a lot on this website - http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
Wish I had guts (and funds) to dive into one of the big TQWT builds...