Warm Audio WA-84

[Delta Sigma]

What if you prefer the tants over film or electrolytic?

 

[Emmathom]

Hi Dominic, I thought there are better caps for the signal path than tantalum... I would never think of tantalum in my mic tube pre's or in any small signal path > Muse BP for low volatge or PIO/Film for HV
For instance, J. Hiraga advises and uses Muse BP in his low signal path boards (pre RIAA, Dac, etc)

 

[Migs 31]

For instance, J. Hiraga advises and uses Muse BP in his low signal path boards (pre RIAA, Dac, etc)

@Emmathom
I know many members here express their disdain of Tantalum caps. Apparently prone to failure etc.

But at the same time, a lot of Pro gear has Tantalums in its audio path (or not) and it still sounds good you know.
AKG C414’s, D 224, Neumann U87’s, Neve modules and many more.
Not a capital sin to have a Tant in.

Try it if you really want to change it. If you have a matched pair of mics, record audio with both mics close together. Mod one, re-record in same position and A-B both audio files. Compare - try to be objective.
M

 

[gyraf]

..I'm pretty convinced that tants are important players when it comes to making a sontec clone sound like an actual sontec..

It's not a lot, but it's certainly there

/Jakob E.

 

[Admiral-dk]

I will try to rate my choices here - but beware there are a number of exeptions - depending on application :
Audio :
1) Ceramic NP0/C0G - If the size of the case makes sense + can get them.
2) Electrolytes if I need big values and they are followed by something where leakage isn't critical - usually OpAmps.
3) Filmcapacitors where I connect the Anode of a Tube to the next stage (passive or active). Manually mounted.
As most of my Production stuff is guitar pedals - NO Filmcapacitors, as they usually degrade really Badly in a Reflow-Oven.
4) Tantalum - when I need a big value and the above isn't an Option - like leakage + they will see about a third of their rated DC Voltage over them.
I would NEVER use a Tantalum if it will see zero Vdc. - as it will distort badly and sound ******.

Power Supply :
1) Electrolytes.
2) Unless the size is small enough to consider Ceramic SMDs.
3) Tantalum - if it makes sense - this can be in relation to price / avaliable parts (defenitely a reason during Covid and for some time after).

Oh - and in repair situations - I NEVER change a good Capacitor ...!!!.... no matter the type. If the value and ESR is good and I don't have any leakage that give me problems. And just to be clear : I change a lot more Filmcapacitors than I change Elelctrolytes in old Tube gear - simply because they leak current into the next stage, and this can destroy the Tube that comes after .... Of cause old Oil- or Paper- capacitors are a lot worse (like what you find in old Teisco Amps).

So why do I recomend not changing the Tantalun in your Microphone - there isn't any room for one that will be an improvement. The Electrolytes you keep on suggesting might work as well as the original Tantalum in this application - but I have a hard time seeing them as an improvement. The Transformer might not care much about any DC Current through it in this application or it might react just as bad as those old Tradania wonder ones did.
In this regard I recomend listening to Jakob E. as he has much, much more experience than me, in regard to Line and Microphone Level Transformers - like how they sound and if they distort in a good or bad way

I also admit that sometimes it better if you make your own experiences - simply to learn - but keep an open mind, like did it truely make a difference or is it just because people tell you it will do so

Per

ps I didn't recomend 1µF 50V electrolytes in your application - it was an example from my previous work.

 

[Emmathom]

I will try to rate my choices here - but beware there are a number of exeptions - depending on application :
Audio :
1) Ceramic NP0/C0G - If the size of the case makes sense + can get them.
2) Electrolytes if I need big values and they are followed by something where leakage isn't critical - usually OpAmps.
3) Filmcapacitors where I connect the Anode of a Tube to the next stage (passive or active). Manually mounted.
As most of my Production stuff is guitar pedals - NO Filmcapacitors, as they usually degrade really Badly in a Reflow-Oven.
4) Tantalum - when I need a big value and the above isn't an Option - like leakage + they will see about a third of their rated DC Voltage over them.
I would NEVER use a Tantalum if it will see zero Vdc. - as it will distort badly and sound ******.

Power Supply :
1) Electrolytes.
2) Unless the size is small enough to consider Ceramic SMDs.
3) Tantalum - if it makes sense - this can be in relation to price / avaliable parts (defenitely a reason during Covid and for some time after).

Oh - and in repair situations - I NEVER change a good Capacitor ...!!!.... no matter the type. If the value and ESR is good and I don't have any leakage that give me problems. And just to be clear : I change a lot more Filmcapacitors than I change Elelctrolytes in old Tube gear - simply because they leak current into the next stage, and this can destroy the Tube that comes after .... Of cause old Oil- or Paper- capacitors are a lot worse (like what you find in old Teisco Amps).

So why do I recomend not changing the Tantalun in your Microphone - there isn't any room for one that will be an improvement. The Electrolytes you keep on suggesting might work as well as the original Tantalum in this application - but I have a hard time seeing them as an improvement. The Transformer might not care much about any DC Current through it in this application or it might react just as bad as those old Tradania wonder ones did.
In this regard I recomend listening to Jakob E. as he has much, much more experience than me, in regard to Line and Microphone Level Transformers - like how they sound and if they distort in a good or bad way

I also admit that sometimes it better if you make your own experiences - simply to learn - but keep an open mind, like did it truely make a difference or is it just because people tell you it will do so

Per

ps I didn't recomend 1µF 50V electrolytes in your application - it was an example from my previous work.

Ok ok Per... some rules are really gold ones like "I never change a good capacitor" and you're right
I'm gonna leave this mic as it is...
FYI, in my mic pre, in the signal path between tube 1 and 2 I use Wima MKP10 or PIO russian (values are 150nF & 470nF)
MKP10 are a good value for money and prices rise (to hell) if you tend to very good (excellent) film caps like Janzten, EVO Oil, etc (let's forget about Duelund, Audyn, Clarity Caps, and many more out of my purse)
A high-end cap review :
https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

 

[Emmathom]

Hi gentlemen,

One of my Warm Audio WA84 pair works poorly or rather alternately... a few times it works well and delivers the same sound and level as the other, but more often it generates a big roaring sound, like an storm in the distance when connected to +48v... The circuitry is poorly assembled and so are the solders. I can't read the ref. on the fet because it's half engraved half written Warm Audio is definitely not a serious brand (WA84 pair is sold at 700€ !)

I think it could be the fet... or a capacitor but not the transformer (no other parts left then).

I found a paper saying the fet is BF245 and another one which says you can replace BF245 by MPF102 or J113 (both in my stock but no BF245 that's why I'm asking)

Regards

 

[RuudNL]

..I'm pretty convinced that tants are important players when it comes to making a sontec clone sound like an actual sontec..

It's not a lot, but it's certainly there

Geoff Tanner (Neve) always warned not to replace tantalum capacitors with aluminium ones.
"Those tants aren't there without a reason", he used to say...

 

[tomas.borgstrom]

Geoff Tanner (Neve) always warned not to replace tantalum capacitors with aluminium ones.
"Those tants aren't there without a reason", he used to say...

If you have a unit from the 70's or 80's were all the electrolytics in the signal path are tantalums the reason is that they performed better than aluminium back then. That's not the case anymore BUT they still have som benefits so if you have a circuit with a mixture you should probably keep the tantalums. And of course, if you want the same sound as the original unit keep the tantalums.

 

[Disco Volante]

It's my impression that tantalums got their bad rep from being used as decoupling on power rails, where their tendency to fail short would be, well, bad...
I've also seen quite a few PSU electrolytics blow up in older gear though... Usually covers the entire machine in gunk and kills the rectofyer, if not the PT too..

 

[Admiral-dk]

Well you got one right +
As an Apprentice [1984], I got the job of figuring why a new product (5MB HDD, Controller + Interface to 4 computers) had Random Data Errors.
EMC problems was suspected and sure enough it was. First major Hardware improvement was to add about 50 pcs. 100µF 6V3 Tantal Capacitor @ the supply pins on IC's. This worked fine until we got an upgraded PCB Layout (rather needed too). Shortly after we ran out of those Tantalums and had to quickly source some more from a different supplier. Not many minutes after the first completed PCB from the Production was hooked up for a longer test run - they had many very LOUD Bangs and the whole PCB caught Fire (or so it appeared). They test a few more and the only difference was how long it took before the same thing happened - WHY ????
Turned out that the other Manufactor had marked the Negative Pin instead of the Positive Pin - and used a stylized Negative Sign, that depending on where in World you're from might be read as a Minus, a Divisor (Fraction Sign) .... But most likely will be read as nice + Sign .... wich they had done in Production

I know that you risk something similar if a Tantalum Capacitor has the correct Polarity, and is getting too close to Max Voltage too ...!

And missed one important one for Audio : If you use a Tantalum in the Signal path and there isn't a propper DC Voltage across it - you will get some very nasty Distortions (unfortunately not the Musically pleasant ones) as a former Boss of mine discovered during his Apprentice period - when the Company he worked in @ the time made a new Measuring Device and had a Hell of a time trying to find out why it measured AC values all over the place - but the correct.
After they change those capacitors to something else (can't remember the type) they suddenly had a perfect new Instrument ...!!!

Per

 

[JohnRoberts]

..I'm pretty convinced that tants are important players when it comes to making a sontec clone sound like an actual sontec..

It's not a lot, but it's certainly there

/Jakob E.

Geoff Tanner (Neve) always warned not to replace tantalum capacitors with aluminium ones.
"Those tants aren't there without a reason", he used to say...

I've shared this story before. Back in the 80s CBS granted me a CX (vinyl noise reduction) license so I could make a CX record playback decoder kit. In the course of studying the licensee package I saw the encoder design schematic and it used a tantalum capacitor in the side chain for the dominant encode/decode time constant. Tantalum caps are known to have high dielectric absorption (DA). In the specific application of a side chain being charged and discharged with different attack/decay impedances, DA could alter the attack/release envelope. To make my playback decoder as accurate as possible I used a tantalum capacitor in the CX kit decoder side chain too.

This was one of the very few times I have used a tantalum capacitor on purpose. Back in the day they were valued for low impedance at HF, and good density (high capacitance in small packages). They are also notorious fire starters when used for PS decoupling.

JR

 

[k brown]

. . . and I'll take the smell of a popped electro over the stink of a fried tant any day!