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sirko

Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2011
Messages
14
Hi Folks,

there are a lot of projects here. For each project there are different threads. After a while they are collected in a meta thread.
When researching you have to read a lot of unnecessary small talk, the information about different projects is not structured,
sometimes entries are wrong and corrected in a later entry.

We need an additional wiki here, with a starting page with an overview about all projects, structured project pages and maybe subpages.
A typical application for a wiki. What do you think?


Regards
Sirko
 
The trouble with wiki's is that using wiki markup "language" is cumbersome so after a while many will stop using it, and just rely on a few to update it.
I've been thinking about a solution for organizing project details for a while, and I have some ideas...but I keep coming back to the idea of creating a searchable knowledge base, but it would only be as good as the project organizer...much like the metas.
 
sirko said:
When researching you have to read a lot of unnecessary small talk,

I've learned most of what I know about electronics from that "unnecessary small talk".  That is the real value of this site for me.  but then I'm not looking to build projects in the shortest most efficient way, I'm here to learn for it's own sake.
 
Thanks for bringing up this subject Sirko!
And thanks for answering Ethan!

From day one it has been a mystery to me why there is no wiki (or similar) here.

I've come up with some possible reasons:
1) Old habits. A new structure with new conventions would be a little unfamiliar in the start.
2) Cloning and copyright. Some project are in the grey-land regarding if it's piracy. And making all the info clearly structured and condensed in a wiki would represent a bigger concern.
3) Some projects are individuals/ or companies DIY-projects and doesn't fit that well in a community-oriented wiki.

Now, regarding Ethans answer above:
I've spent a lot of time writing on wikis and I honestly believe the markup is no more difficult than writing here on the forum. Yes, it's many more possibilities (formatting, pictures, links). But, the basic is just as simple as this forum.
 
ruairioflaherty said:
I've learned most of what I know about electronics from that "unnecessary small talk".  That is the real value of this site for me.  but then I'm not looking to build projects in the shortest most efficient way, I'm here to learn for it's own sake.
Yes, I value the small-talk of the forum as well. That's what we have a forum for.
However, a wiki would for me be a big improvement.
 
Favourite post today!

I really don't see what the problem is with that approach. Especially if you're new to (studio) electronics, because you will pick up and learn way more than you were actually looking for as you read on. Not saying a Wiki is a bad idea, not at all. But it does create more overhead and need for maintenance and administration.
 
I offer to program a kind of bridge for Mediawiki or any open source knowledge base to synchronise users and passwords.

The question is, do we believe in the crowd or not. To my mind Wikipedia has been better when there were no moderators.
The community here is very warm and intelligent, I cannot believe just trying to run a wiki with *these* users would be a risk.  Why do we not just try out if the users here are able to learn the necessary syntax of any wiki markup language by just modifying an article? Don't underestimate the people here. If there are any questions, they will for shure ask here and not in another forum;-)

@Ethan: What are your ideas for a searchable knowledge base? Maybe there already are some open source scripts?

@G-Sun: "Some project are in the grey-land regarding if it's piracy" is a killer argument. Hmm


Regards
Sirko Zidlewitz
 
volker said:
Favourite post today!

I really don't see what the problem is with that approach. Especially if you're new to (studio) electronics, because you will pick up and learn way more than you were actually looking for as you read on. Not saying a Wiki is a bad idea, not at all. But it does create more overhead and need for maintenance and administration.
This is really the only place I know of on the internet where a forum is used in this way.

For me, this is like having wardrobe, where dirty, old, new, ironed, nonironed clothes are tossed in at random, together with pieces of some toys and other stuff. So, you might be ok, knowing where to look for that jeans you want. But for a person unfamiliar with your wardrobe, trying to find a specific item there, it's a real pain.

Now, I'm not writing to complain. I just believe we can do much better for ourselves and for newcomers.
 
I've been thinking about this issue for a very long time. However, I haven't been able to think of a solution that is functionally better than the metas. The only downfall of the metas is that members lose interest in updating them--but this will be a problem regardless of whether it's a wiki, knowledge-base, doohicky, or doodad. Additionally, even with a wiki system, some moderation is necessary. Imagine a troll signing up and just abusively editing/deleting all the wikis. I don't really think the "system" is the problem. The longer-term problem is having enough members interested in keeping the metas constantly updated.

If any member is willing and dedicated to updating a particular meta, I'm happy to give them the user permissions to do so. However, very few have ever asked to do this.
 
Ethan said:
The only downfall of the metas is that members lose interest in updating them--but this will be a problem regardless of whether it's a wiki, knowledge-base, doohicky, or doodad. 

No, Ethan, that is exactly the beauty of a wiki.
One person lose interest in updating a page -another one takes over.
That's community-thinking :)

Ethan said:
Even with a wiki system, some moderation is necessary. Imagine a troll signing up and just abusively editing/deleting all the wikis.

Yes, the wiki will need some moderation, but I don't think that'll be more than moderating the forum.

A wiki can have protected pages (editable for only the moderators), semi-protected pages (editable only for registered users) and unprotected pages.
(And more, see: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:User_rights )
Moderation is not only done by the moderators, but by all experienced users.
If a see spam (that's the most usual problem), I'll just revert the edit, regardless if I'm an moderator or not.

Then there are CMS-systems like Drupal who can have even more sophisticated levels of user-levels. It could also be a host for a forum.
Here's how Drupal handles these things: http://drupal.org/node/120614
 
VERY FEW will edit a wiki, despite VERY MANY wanting the wiki to be edited. For most projects on this forum, all the information is available in single threads, but some just don't want to read through it all. If a wiki becomes very thorough, it will become very long. What will make a member want to read a very long wiki much more than a very long thread? 
 
Just tossing out ideas here...

would an up/down vote function, like on reddit, have any value? If something has technical knowledge or value, upvote it, if it has little to no knowledge or technical information, downvote it?

I'd hate for it to become a popularity contest, though...

One problem of a user moderated wiki, in this regard is that people suck, and some of the lerkers/trolls that hide around here with no intent to contribute, may try to vandalize or sabotage the wiki...as we have seen done to the gmail account.
 
Ethan said:
VERY FEW will edit a wiki
Is that true?
If a wiki becomes very thorough, it will become very long. What will make a member want to read a very long wiki much more than a very long thread?
Well, the point of a wiki is IMO to condense things. It's important to be clear of what the goal of a possible wiki should be.
I see a tendency in the METAs to try accumulate as many links  to as much information as possible, on the cost of simplicity and newbie-friendliness.
To me "less is more" could be a guideline for the main-pages of a wiki.
 
gemini86 said:
would an up/down vote function, like on reddit, have any value? If something has technical knowledge or value, upvote it, if it has little to no knowledge or technical information, downvote it?
That could be fine on some threads, but for many others it wouldn't fit IMO.

One problem of a user moderated wiki, in this regard is that people suck, and some of the lerkers/trolls that hide around here with no intent to contribute, may try to vandalize or sabotage the wiki...as we have seen done to the gmail account.
Ok, I don't know of the history of the gmail-account. But I can't remember meeting any user here that "suck".

One think you're right about though: It's no use starting a wiki that just a few users are interested in building and using. It would need a choice and a type of commitment.
 
Ethan said:
If any member is willing and dedicated to updating a particular meta, I'm happy to give them the user permissions to do so. However, very few have ever asked to do this.
Any meta?
I'll do some work with the metas, if there's not a wiki or something coming.
Not do heaps of hours, but, I'll do my share :)
 
You won't meet any users here that suck... I said people. There are thousands of registered  accounts with 0 posts. lurkers or otherwise. Giving wiki editing access to them would be a mistake.

A while ago somebody deleted almost everything from the gmail account and then recentlychanged the password completely.
 
I had an idea for the forum shortly after joining in regards to projects (and their owners).  In fact i actually programmed a beta for it on one of my servers (i think its long gone now, but wasnt difficult and kind of used the "answers" pages format a bit:

The idea was basically a goto page for each project. (same as the META pages are, only form driven for consistency sake and with Q&A)

The page had a moderator (i would suggest the person(s) responsible for the project, where the "owner" would be able to elect another moderator(s) if desired (or needed)).

The project page would have a standard set of documents associated with it (BOM, schematic, overlay, FPE, photos, etc. where applicable (a mic project might not need a front panel...))  The initial page would basically be a form that the creator fills out which creates the page.  info can be edited as needed.  The basic files (if server space allows) should be hosted HERE to avoid broken links (as a web admin, i know thats not always possible especially with the amount of files associated with projects on this site)

Instead of just random banter and posts on the page, users could submit questions to the page which would appear.  The owner could then answer the question.  (an alternative to that would be to allow other users to answer the question as well ) but allowing the moderator to select the best/correct answer for the question)

So in theory you'd have a page with all the pertinent info at the top (which most people have tried to do setting up support threads for their projects) and then a list of questions and answers.  Would be cool to have all the answers accordioned in so when you click on the question the answer pops up.  Theres tons of ways to do this.  But it would allow for a very clean, banter free, project page where the same answer isn't given over and over and over on page 2, then page 22, then on page 64, then on page 88 etc.  Lets face it, when the threads start getting in to the triple digits on pages, it gets a little rough.

Now for circumstances where lets say 2 people had the same question, but the answer wasn't the one and only fix for the problem, users could reference the question, and once resolved (if resolved) the answer could then be added to the original question as an alternate remedy.  I'll give a for instance here: (and this is just an example... the info here might not be 'correct')

Project: 1176 Rev D
Creator:Mnats
Creation Date:Jan 1 2000
Current Version: 2.2

Schematic:http://mnats.net/files/1176LN_REVD_V2.2_DOC.pdf
BOM:http://mnats.net/files/1176LN_REVD_V2.2_DOC.pdf
Overlay:http://mnats.net/files/1176LN_REVD_V2.2_DOC.pdf
Etch Files:http://mnats.net/files/DIY1176LNREVD_V2.pdf(ver 2.0)
External Links:http://mnats.net/1176_revision_d.htmlGeneral
                                http://mnats.net/1176_reva-d_hairball_wiring_power.htmlWiring Guide

Notes: Current Rev 2.2 R12 should be 1.8k instead of 920 (as marked on overlay)

Questions:
During calibration step 3, when i engage the compressor, I'm getting no drop on the meter.
            Answer 1:Make sure the wiring on the switch is correct orientation
            Answer 2:Check that the center pin of the switches on the ratio board have continuity to pin 4 of the molex
            Answer 3:Check continuity between the ratio board and main pcb. (ALL PINS)

Again, very similar to the META pages, just in a consistent format, hopefully reducing duplicate questions.



 
sr1200 said:
The idea was basically a goto page for each project.

Wow, that would of course be brilliant!
The special needs of this subject would really benefit from a custom-made structure.

However, making that custom-made structure seems like a very complicated task.
Maybe you have the skills and passion for such a project, but what happens when you're not able/willing any more?

A structure like Wiki, Drupal, Joomla or Wordpress are much safer in this aspect.

Ethan: You mentioned you had some ideas. Can you tell us a little more about them?
 
Well, the conclusion that I came to, is that the forum is standing just fine as it is.  It takes some real diligence to find what you're looking for and I kinda have grow to like the "hunt" so to speak for the information.  In searching for the information, you can pick up a lot of information and learn a lot of good stuff.
 
The difference in any Wiki solution is the power of the crowd and I don't mean that in any negative way. When Wikipedia started, everyone was able to modify an article, every change was visible immediately: The reason for its success.
Because almost every Wiki system includes a version control, there is no risk loosing information, even when we consider the amount of inactive accounts here. Reverting Vandalism in a wiki takes no more than doing a few mouse clicks.
Only that way we can lower the inhibition threshold to contribute. That way is not an experiment, but prooved on one of the most successful websites ever.

But we forget one exception: "Some project are in the grey-land regarding if it's piracy." It's a big problem.


Regards
Sirko
 
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