What Happened in Vegas?

[bluebird]

Interesting comment from guitarist Caled Keeter from the Josh Abbott Band... I guess it all melts down to perspective.

“I’ve been a proponent of the 2nd amendment my entire life. Until the events of last night. I cannot express how wrong I was. We actually have members of our crew with [Concealed Handgun Licenses], and legal firearms on the bus,” Keeter wrote. “They were useless.” He continued:

    We couldn’t touch them for fear police might think we were part of the massacre and shoot us. A small group (or one man) laid waste to a city with dedicated, fearless police officers desperately trying to help, because of access to an insane amount of fire power.

    Enough is enough.

    Writing my parents and the love of my life a goodbye last night and a living will because I felt like I wasn’t going to live through the night was enough for me to realize that this is completely and totally out of hand. These rounds were just powerful enough that my crew guys just standing in close proximity of a victim shot by this f—ing coward received shrapnel wounds.

    We need gun control RIGHT. NOW. My biggest regret is that I stubbornly didn’t realize it until my brothers on the road and myself were threatened by it. We are unbelievably fortunate to not be among the number of victims killed or seriously wounded by this maniac.

 

[DaveP]

Finally someone has realised the problem...........the availability of machine guns in the US.

In that, you have something in common with Afghanistan, Syria and drug cartel land, and surprise surprise ,

THE RESULTS ARE THE SAME.

In countries without the freedom obsession, this does not happen.  It is not anymore complicated than that.

DaveP

 

[gyraf]

Dave, you're wrong.

The problem was clearly that not EVERYONE at the concert had their automatic assault rifle with them - if they had, they would simply have fought back and disarmed the guy (flattening the hotel in the process).

THAT, my friend, would be the US way...

;D

Jakob E.

 

[peterc]

It's time for a change...... surely?

 

[dirtyhanfri]

And for that matter, what happened in Spain. Riot police shooting rubber bullets at the public.

Cheers

Ian

Well, the main problem here is an inefficient state government as well as an inefficient county  government, both of them unable to solve the situation as real politicians, turned the citizens against themselves.

The central government made the rest of Spain think in catalonians as greedy and bourgeois, while Catalonia has traditionally been the refuge for people from Andalucia and other regions with poor work quality.

Meanwhile, Catalonian local government tried to hide their corruption with the nationalism flag. It's quite funny how they seduced hard-left and anti-capitalism partys as CUP to help them in their purposes, it's going to be a big surprise if they get independence and the "Democratic party of Catalonia" reach the government.

As non catalonian citizen, I'm quite ashamed by the ineffectiveness of our government, not by it's political sign, I think there a very low sense of state by all partys. My boss and my sister's wife are catalonian, My company is located in Barcelona and Madrid, my colleagues and I travel frequently between both cities. Seriously those high paid politicians are unable to reach a solution? Damn, just drop a bit more of money and a few bells and whistles for Catalonians as they did with Vasque Country or Navarra.

We have (and pay) a King (......) who didn't even made a public speak about the conflict.

I use to say, I love Spain, but it's full of spanish people...

Sorry for the offtopic.

My condolences with all the Vegas victims.

 

[Banzai]

Oh, pulled down I suppose...

If you can't even own that you're spreading misinformation, then you're part of the problem.

 

[living sounds]

The shooter who did such a heinous act, leaned liberal. If you read any part of his Facebook page
he is proud to be a democrat
part of the anti-trump army,
part of the organization for action,
Often said not my president
wants trump impeached
and watches the rachael meadow show.

maybe meadow is the problem? maybe we need to ban democrats or trump needs denounce them?

What I said. Misinformation from social media. 

 

[Matador]

Oh, pulled down I suppose...

Sweet Jesus, about 15 seconds of checking showed that whole story was bunk.  Doesn't anyone do any research nowadays?

On 4chan, the anonymous message board and a favorite platform of the “alt-right”, some noted that Danley was a registered Democrat. Soon after, Gateway Pundit, a conspiracy-laden blog that earned White House credentials under Trump, published an evidence-free story headlined, “Las Vegas Shooter Reportedly a Democrat Who Liked Rachel Maddow, MoveOn.org and Associated with Anti-Trump Army”. The piece was based on a review of Facebook “likes”.

It's time for a change...... surely?

Nothing will be done.  If we cannot act after dozens of 6 or 7 year old kids were killed, then nothing will spurn action on this.

 

[JohnRoberts]

It looks like almost everybody has dusted off their old assumptions and agendas.

I (not) surprisingly heard some misinformation from one TV reported adding information that was not very accurate.

He described a modified AR-15 (looks like the M-16 military assault rifle). The AR-15 is a stripped down version of the military weapon with the full automatic capability disabled. People with gunsmith skills can modify the  AR-15 action to allow it to operate in full automatic mode.  The statement from the reporter that irritated me was that he described the modified AR-15 as firing thousands and thousands of rounds with the "full automatic" capability.... He is clearly confusing the rate of burst fire in full automatic (we called it "rock and roll"), and actual delivery of fire on a practical target, Real machine guns have swappable barrels (because they can overheat), and ammunition belts to support high rates of fire.

For those not familiar with the weapon, it does not use a belt, but a clip. When I was in the army (albeit over 40 years ago), the standard clip for the M-16 held 18 rounds.  So while the firing rate can be very fast, you will be constantly reloading the empty clips. Firing 900 rounds a minute, means your 18 shot clip will last just over one second.  :

Presumably this bad guy knew that so had a bunch of clips preloaded... In the military soldiers would hoard extra clips for that exact reason. Another trick was to tape two clips back to back, so you could flip over the empty one and have a fresh one already loaded to use (36 shots is better than 18). The AK-47 (enemy automatic assault rifle) used a banana, curved, clip that held more bullets.

Not to try to think like this bad actor but..... I can not imagine any possible benefit from full automatic mode in his situation. Nobody was firing back at him to neutralize. He would just be wasting ammo, firing anything but single shot. So the reporter trying to attach some significance to the modified AR-15 speaks to his ignorance of ordinance and fighting.

Back in the 70s I had a roommate who owned an AR-15  (big boy's toy), he was not a mass killer (still isn't).  I had no such desire to play with weapons, getting it out of my system serving in the army.

I suspect we will see tighter gun security recommended for hotels in populous areas, but this is reactive. We need to wait and determine what motivated this particular miscreant, for possible direct remedies.

We will probably learn and adjust from this horrible event too, just not going to learn much from early TV news reports.

JR

PS: Human instinct is to look for people to blame and punish them. We are no longer hunter gatherers, so should wait for authorities to sort this latest tragedy out (suppress our inner caveman). 

 

[DaveP]

I'm no expert, but from the clips I heard it sounded like a belt driven machine gun because the shots were continuous,

DaveP

 

[bruno2000]

I'm no expert, but from the clips I heard it sounded like a belt driven machine gun because the shots were continuous,

DaveP

On all of the videos I saw, there were bursts of fire, then at least a 10 second delay before the next burst.
Best,
Bruno2000

 

[mattiasNYC]

Sweet Jesus, about 15 seconds of checking showed that whole story was bunk.  Doesn't anyone do any research nowadays?

No, and it explains why Trump won and still has some supporters. They don't care about what is true.

 

[mattiasNYC]

It looks like almost everybody has dusted off their old assumptions and agendas.

What is the agenda of pucho? Just curious since he's spreading misinformation here...

I (not) surprisingly heard some misinformation from one TV reported adding information that was not very accurate.

He described a modified AR-15 (looks like the M-16 military assault rifle). The AR-15 is a stripped down version of the military weapon with the full automatic capability disabled. People with gunsmith skills can modify the  AR-15 action to allow it to operate in full automatic mode.  The statement from the reporter that irritated me was that he described the modified AR-15 as firing thousands and thousands of rounds with the "full automatic" capability.... He is clearly confusing the rate of burst fire in full automatic (we called it "rock and roll"), and actual delivery of fire on a practical target, Real machine guns have swappable barrels (because they can overheat), and ammunition belts to support high rates of fire.

For those not familiar with the weapon, it does not use a belt, but a clip. When I was in the army (albeit over 40 years ago), the standard clip for the M-16 held 18 rounds.  So while the firing rate can be very fast, you will be constantly reloading the empty clips. Firing 900 rounds a minute, means your 18 shot clip will last just over one second.  :

Presumably this bad guy knew that so had a bunch of clips preloaded... In the military soldiers would hoard extra clips for that exact reason. Another trick was to tape two clips back to back, so you could flip over the empty one and have a fresh one already loaded to use (36 shots is better than 18). The AK-47 (enemy automatic assault rifle) used a banana, curved, clip that held more bullets.

I feel compelled to file the above under "So what? What difference does it make?" I find it peculiar how often some get bogged down in technical details in cases like these.

Not to try to think like this bad actor but..... I can not imagine any possible benefit from full automatic mode in his situation. Nobody was firing back at him to neutralize. He would just be wasting ammo, firing anything but single shot. So the reporter trying to attach some significance to the modified AR-15 speaks to his ignorance of ordinance and fighting.

But he was firing from a long distance, so what's the benefit of single shots? He wouldn't have been able to pinpoint a person at that distance, especially not running people. But if you're firing into a group of thousands of people that are starting to panic, surely as many bullets as possible into that general area increases the chances of hitting people.

I suspect we will see tighter gun security recommended for hotels in populous areas,

I don't see how that solves more problems than it creates. It's pretty much impossible to screen people in a hotel especially in an area like that. People check in and out and also go in and out of their rooms all the time. How would you screen? Who would you screen? Seems impossible practically.

but this is reactive. We need to wait and determine what motivated this particular miscreant, for possible direct remedies.

Well, when this issue comes up it's pretty much always never the time to comment on it. It's always time to heal. And once we can discuss it the dialog is mostly pretty stupid. Money talks and there won't be much change I think, unless Trump thinks he'll benefit by it and then can push something through money-owned congress, which I doubt.

We will probably learn and adjust from this horrible event too, just not going to learn much from early TV news reports.

JR

PS: Human instinct is to look for people to blame and punish them. We are no longer hunter gatherers, so should wait for authorities to sort this latest tragedy out (suppress our inner caveman).

I doubt much will change. You have a president that said that Hillary wanted to take peoples' guns away. So what are we to expect now? And how many mass killings are needed before action is taken? How many must die?

Nothing will change, despite many Americans on both sides being in favor of background checks and excluding the mentally ill..

 

[JohnRoberts]

What is the agenda of pucho? Just curious since he's spreading misinformation here...

I don't know, you sure like to argue.

I feel compelled to file the above under "So what? What difference does it make?" I find it peculiar how often some get bogged down in technical details in cases like these.

My point was the reporter amplified his observation with information that was not accurate or pertinent. Automatic weapons are a hot button political topic... but not very helpful when firing from 1000'.

But he was firing from a long distance, so what's the benefit of single shots? He wouldn't have been able to pinpoint a person at that distance, especially not running people. But if you're firing into a group of thousands of people that are starting to panic, surely as many bullets as possible into that general area increases the chances of hitting people.

perhaps he thought he would be discovered and stopped more quickly than happened.

at 1000' away he probably would have missed anything he pointed at using full auto.  We were trained to squeeze off groups of 3  shots or so (in full auto) for most effectiveness. In full auto the rifle will not end up pointed where you started out.

I don't see how that solves more problems than it creates. It's pretty much impossible to screen people in a hotel especially in an area like that. People check in and out and also go in and out of their rooms all the time. How would you screen? Who would you screen? Seems impossible practically.

Some hotels in different parts of the world require screening and metal detectors just to enter.

Well, when this issue comes up it's pretty much always never the time to comment on it. It's always time to heal. And once we can discuss it the dialog is mostly pretty stupid. Money talks and there won't be much change I think, unless Trump thinks he'll benefit by it and then can push something through money-owned congress, which I doubt.

I doubt much will change. You have a president that said that Hillary wanted to take peoples' guns away. So what are we to expect now? And how many mass killings are needed before action is taken? How many must die?

Nothing will change, despite many Americans on both sides being in favor of background checks and excluding the mentally ill..

I do not know enough facts to make a thoughtful suggestion about a remedy.

Stricter screening in hotels already go on today around the world, I think it is a logical speculation that it will be considered here.

JR

 

[pucho812]

pucho has no agenda. If I did maybe I would be further along down the road or something.

Like everything else relating to this, initial reports were incorrect. I'm not the first or the last to pass on miss information. That lady is all over the internet acting the ho.  Seriously though, I got that info from what was deemed a credible news source. You have to trust someone at some point otherwise where do you end up? it turned out to be incorrect.  End of story....

There is much to learn from any event like that and it sucks that something tragic happened. It also sucks that some people believe this was a false flag and raise questions like a second shooter or the guy was on the 4th floor and not the 32nd floor. There are those believing the guy they got was a patsy.  Do want to go on about them too?

 

[cyrano]

NYC is putting in 100 million $ towers. Nobody knows what they do, precisely. Not even the people who are responsible for the locations where they're being built. DHS stuff. Lights and camera's.

But that is obviously no protection against terrorism. Even a mildly intelligent terrorist knows these are there to watch.

And these kinds of measures are the obvious way to avoid the real question: What does it take to convert an intelligent, rich, white person with no obvious problems to become irrationally violent?

Look it up: there's only one condition that matches the symptom: lead poisoning. Sudden insanely violent behaviour is common in more than half of the cases. The others die quietly, slowly.

This has been a known fact for almost a century. And just like when it was discovered in the UK that lead was poisonous, we, as a whole, ignore it.

 

[mattiasNYC]

I don't know, you sure like to argue.

Well, I just note that some people here keep talking about "agendas" every now and then, but tend to not define what they are. That's why I asked. Carry on....

My point was the reporter amplified his observation with information that was not accurate or pertinent. Automatic weapons are a hot button political topic... but not very helpful when firing from 1000'. perhaps he thought he would be discovered and stopped more quickly than happened.

at 1000' away he probably would have missed anything he pointed at using full auto.  We were trained to squeeze off groups of 3  shots or so (in full auto) for most effectiveness. In full auto the rifle will not end up pointed where you started out.

You're completely missing the point.

I agree that auto is pointless when trying to hit A target, but when you're just trying to hit anyone in a crowd of over twenty thousand people then more bullets is better. I think this is logical.

Some hotels in different parts of the world require screening and metal detectors just to enter.

I haven't been in a single one that does, neither any other non-federal/state commercial or private building.

I do not know enough facts to make a thoughtful suggestion about a remedy.

Stricter screening in hotels already go on today around the world, I think it is a logical speculation that it will be considered here.

JR

It might be considered, but I just don't see how it can be realistically done, practically. It's fairly typical of Americans to demand increased security measures when things like these happen, and then settle for relatively ineffective or straight up dumb ones.

So while it might be considered I just don't really know how on earth it's going to work practically. I'm sure you've been to Vegas too, and I'm sure you've seen the tremendous amount of people going in and out of hotels. I just don't see how it can be done practically.

 

[mattiasNYC]

pucho has no agenda. If I did maybe I would be further along down the road or something.

Like everything else relating to this, initial reports were incorrect. I'm not the first or the last to pass on miss information. That lady is all over the internet acting the ho.  Seriously though, I got that info from what was deemed a credible news source. You have to trust someone at some point otherwise where do you end up? it turned out to be incorrect.  End of story....

Not really. Do you no longer trust this source?

What was the source?

There is much to learn from any event like that and it sucks that something tragic happened. It also sucks that some people believe this was a false flag and raise questions like a second shooter or the guy was on the 4th floor and not the 32nd floor. There are those believing the guy they got was a patsy.  Do want to go on about them too?

Do they post that on this forum?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Well, I just note that some people here keep talking about "agendas" every now and then, but tend to not define what they are. That's why I asked. Carry on....

You're completely missing the point.

I agree that auto is pointless when trying to hit A target, but when you're just trying to hit anyone in a crowd of over twenty thousand people then more bullets is better. I think this is logical.

I haven't been in a single one that does, neither any other non-federal/state commercial or private building.

It might be considered, but I just don't see how it can be realistically done, practically. It's fairly typical of Americans to demand increased security measures when things like these happen, and then settle for relatively ineffective or straight up dumb ones.

So while it might be considered I just don't really know how on earth it's going to work practically. I'm sure you've been to Vegas too, and I'm sure you've seen the tremendous amount of people going in and out of hotels. I just don't see how it can be done practically.

Yes I've been to vegas and trust me they are watching every move inside the casinos... If patrons demand security they will get it, but i am just speculating...

The hotels I heard about with metal detectors and pat downs were in the middle east... (no anecdotal mentions that I believe,  I do not visit hotels in the middle east).

JR

PS: Rather than attacking the integrity of the tens of millions of Trump voters (roughly half the voting population), maybe evaluate all the political elite who both underestimated him, and misread the mood of the electorate who are fed up with the status quo.

 

[pucho812]

Not really. Do you no longer trust this source?

What was the source?

Do they post that on this forum?

Source does not matter.  they do not post here. As for trust, I have no reason not too but I do have doubts about their information. Nothing further investigating can't solve.