What is responsible for soundstage in a preamp design?

[Ricardus]

I escaped the hifi market back in the 80s after receiving night and day different (good/bad) reviews for the exact same phono preamp from two different reviewers. Giving them the benefit of a doubt, the reviewers were probably hearing the differences in their personal playback systems. Phono cartridges, loudspeakers, and listening room acoustics surely vary orders of magnitude more than my preamp did.

JR

PS: Just like the phono cartridges (and loading) introduced a huge variable in phono preamp response, the microphones are a far weaker link than most mic preamps.

I get it.

But the narcissism of some of the people who think they have better ears than everyone else in the world does make me laugh.

 

[ccaudle]

who think they have better ears than everyone else in the world

Why wouldn't they? They demonstrate their ability with level matched blinded testing, right? They do that don't they? What do you mean, of course they must do that, how else would they prove their abilities?

 

[nick_t]

'Why does a $1000 API pre sound more '3d' than a $100 MOTU pre?'

'Why does a $3000 Gibson sound more '3d' than a $300 Epiphone?'

"Why does a..."

Many reasons? Or am I missing something here. 8-10db more headroom, much better bass definition, less anaemic low mids, no spitty transients, better reproduction of low level detail, better average output levels, a higher current output.

Without having much knowledge of circuit design beyond the basics, they’re the kind of things I tend to think contribute to a ‘convincingly lifelike natural sound with 3d qualities and some proper size and perspective’.

 

[JohnRoberts]

'Why does a $1000 API pre sound more '3d' than a $100 MOTU pre?'

'Why does a $3000 Gibson sound more '3d' than a $300 Epiphone?'

"Why does a..."

Many reasons? Or am I missing something here. 8-10db more headroom, much better bass definition, less anaemic low mids, no spitty transients, better reproduction of low level detail, better average output levels, a higher current output.

Without having much knowledge of circuit design beyond the basics, they’re the kind of things I tend to think contribute to a ‘convincingly lifelike natural sound with 3d qualities and some proper size and perspective’.

expectation bias....

JR

 

[nick_t]

Not sure I understand you John. Are the engineers at API and the luthiers at Gibson also suffering from expectation bias?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Not sure I understand you John. Are the engineers at API and the luthiers at Gibson also suffering from expectation bias?

Do you know Jim DeCola (head Luthier at Gibson)? I do, I knew him when he was working at Peavey last century.

I don't think I know anybody at API these days. I believe they have changed hands a few times. I was hired to consult with the tire kicking team when they changed hands back in the mid 80s.

I do know Paul Wolff (aka forum member FIX here) who was an API employee back when the original company was in business, and involved in a few later incarnations.

Good marketers keep the "expectations" high. High prices help feed those elevated expectations.

JR

 

[Ricardus]

'Why does a $1000 API pre sound more '3d' than a $100 MOTU pre?'

'Why does a $3000 Gibson sound more '3d' than a $300 Epiphone?'

"Why does a..."

Many reasons? Or am I missing something here. 8-10db more headroom, much better bass definition, less anaemic low mids, no spitty transients, better reproduction of low level detail, better average output levels, a higher current output.

Without having much knowledge of circuit design beyond the basics, they’re the kind of things I tend to think contribute to a ‘convincingly lifelike natural sound with 3d qualities and some proper size and perspective’.

So how do you know any of this is true? Did you test double blind?

What IS a spitty transient by the way?

 

[Ricardus]

expectation bias....

JR

And once again we have another "2 post johnny" arguing junk science. Seeing a pattern here?

 

[Ricardus]

Not sure I understand you John. Are the engineers at API and the luthiers at Gibson also suffering from expectation bias?

You also don't seem to understand expectation bias. The people who built/designed the gear (in this case) aren't the ones suffering from expectation bias. The person listening, who automatically thinks the API sounds better than the MOTU is.

 

[Gold]

So how do you know any of this is true? Did you test double blind?

What IS a spitty transient by the way?

Double blind is an academic construct that is unrealistic for anyone without a large budget. Insisting on a peer reviewed study to make every listening decision is not practical. Now if you're talking about having your buddy flip switch and calling that double blind, have at it. It's no better than having a trained listener evaluate it in my opinion.

 

[Riley Casey]

...

So what is responsible for the depth and 3D soundstage? ...

The marketing department?

 

[Hansblooey Ribbon]

The louder one is the best one

 

[Tubetec]

With triodes back in the old days the ouptut at 5% THD was often specified as the maximum ,
distortion of that magnitude might not be judged intollerable on some sources , on the peaks ,

Its about real world sounds , not stuff comming off tape or DAW , the percussive spike when an artist exclaims vocally or attacks the strings , its microseconds of overload , but how its handled matters ,


The further you can drive your equipment into harmonic distortion before its judged intollerable to the ear the better when dealing with transient spikes in live performances
Most certainly transformers and inductors help soak up these peaks when levels momentairily go through the roof ,
Chaotic is an interesting term to put on it , but 2nd harmonic is surely not that ,the higher order distortions and their associated IMD products turn to sonic dirt very fast though ,

Imagine it a bit like a 'transient **** filter' , the molecules in core material acting like a punchbag on the peaks ,

Good design stands the test of time ,
look at all the most favoured bits of studio kit ever ,
its nearly all transformer based when it comes to analog gear ,

 

[nick_t]

“Good marketers keep the "expectations" high. High prices help feed those elevated expectations.”

Marketers bending the truth to ‘elevate expectations’ happens just as much at the lower end of town as it does at the higher end. Higher end products from certain brands being overpriced due to excess demand doesn’t ipso facto imply that budget products will sound just the same.

No one should expect a budget 5V desktop interface pre with much poorer specs on paper to sound as ‘3d’ or as good in any way. It’s targeted at teenagers and podcasters.

A bottom of the range Epiphone SG is not a top of the range Gibson SG, despite their superficial similarities. It doesn’t play the same, it doesn’t sound the same, it’s made from much cheaper timber and parts, and it took far less manual labour on the assembly line to produce. Hence why it costs so much less.

You’re suggesting these objective differences are ‘all in people’s heads’. Feel free to ask Jim and Paul whether they agree with you ...

 

[JohnRoberts]

Double blind is an academic construct that is unrealistic for anyone without a large budget. Insisting on a peer reviewed study to make every listening decision is not practical. Now if you're talking about having your buddy flip switch and calling that double blind, have at it. It's no better than having a trained listener evaluate it in my opinion.

Double blind listening tests carried out until they realize statistical significance is an extremely high bar.... Too high for any practical use other than to shut down pontificating blowhards.

Over the decades I have done too many single blind listening tests that were not completely controlled for all variables (like level, frequency response, etc). You do what you have to do. I still have the unpleasant recollection of one listening test my boss requested when I was out of town and couldn't keep an eye on it.
====

You’re suggesting these objective differences are ‘all in people’s heads’.

I hate it when people put words in my mouth.

Feel free to ask Jim and Paul whether they agree with you ...

I wouldn't expect them to agree with your straw man argument. Jimmy developed the Wolfgang guitar with Eddie. I am not a playa but IIRC it was pretty well regarded. I know enough about guitar manufacturing to understand there are differences between budget and premium axes. For a little historical footnote Hartley was first to incorporate a NC mill to machine guitar necks. That German milling machine was originally designed for cutting precision rifle stocks.

Paul is head and shoulders better than I ever was at schmoozing customers. I have the bad habit of telling them too much truth.

JR

 

[user 37518]

But the narcissism of some of the people who think they have better ears than everyone else in the world does make me laugh.

Do you mean like this:

In case a change can be heard by reversing cables it is not something i can explain (nor can any single individual with limited resources).
And if you can't hear any differences you should consider yourself lucky (no pun intended).

 

[Lampie519]

Looks like we have some medical experts here as well... good to know..

 

[nick_t]

Apologies if I misread you JR.

I think I made my point for whatever it's worth, so will leave it at that.

 

[Tubetec]

As I said I think this concept of a 3D sound from a single mono source is away with the fairies ,
Ok a mono sound reproduced over a single speaker in a room can end up with some spatial cues ,but thats only an artifact of reflections in the room itself due to monitoring or micing technique or a mix of both ,

Its true cheap modern guitars dont often come from the factory in playable condition nowadays , a set up or even reseating the frets is often required first , thats poor workmanship , some of the guitars under the name Gibson , made in USA are sometimes not much better nowadays , its like they were rejects the first time round .
Any luthier will tell you its getting more difficult to find good quality responsiby sourced timbers , the restrictions on the trade in certain timbers and the cost means cheaper woods end up used for mass produced garbage.
There was a time the Japanese made squire strat copies with very high quality materials and excelent craftsmanship , a decent set of pickups and some new hardware and these era guitars can be as good if not better than the USA equivalent .

I also dont see what difference having a piece of gear powered from a 5v rail makes , in any case proper +/- rails for the op amps are generated internally , true the desktop models wont have the headroom found in pro level studio gear , but that need not be an issue that effects sound quality
There are a few very high spec A/D and DACs convertors out there that run off 5v USB power .

 

[rock soderstrom]

Its true cheap modern guitars dont often come from the factory in playable condition nowadays , a set up or even reseating the frets is often required first , thats poor workmanship , some of the guitars under the name Gibson , made in USA are sometimes not much better nowadays , its like they were rejects the first time round .

There was a time the Japanese made squire strat copies with very high quality materials and excelent craftsmanship , a decent set of pickups and some new hardware and these era guitars can be as good if not better than the USA equivalent .

My impression is different. I've played a few new low budget guitars recently and almost all of them were set up really well from the factory.

Especially in the area of cheap guitars, you get much more for the money today than in the past. When I compare the crutches I started playing with in the 80ies with the current Squiers, Epiphones and also OEM stuff like Harley Benton, then I have to clearly state that the current guitars are much better on average. I think modern CNC milling machines have left their mark.

The Vintage modified Squier 50ies Tele from China are really good, for example. You don't have to change anything, even the pickups are of good quality.