who wants to be a truck driver when they grow up.

[hodad]

AFAICT, the truck protesters are NOT anti-vax, but against mandated vaccinations.

Do you really think any of the vast majority of vaxxed Canadian truckers care a bit about the mandate? It IS anti-vax, because the only folks who are going to forgo work to protest a mandate they've already complied with are the anti-vaxxers. You're splitting hairs to make it seem like something it isn't.

As to the flu comparison: about as many people in the US died of covid in the last 2 weeks as die of the flu in a typical year. We may get to "flu" level soon, but at least in the US we are not there yet.

 

[fazer]

I mean seriously: how much sympathy do you think they'd be getting if covid restrictions were eased?

That is the truckers goal. Ease the restrictions right. No !

 

[hodad]

That is the truckers goal. Ease the restrictions right. No !

I'm not sure if that's why they're doing this--it's certainly a more universal sell than not wanting to be vaxxed in order to be engaged in cross-border trucking. But frankly, a handful of anti-vaxx truckers are not the group I want telling me when it's time to ease pandemic restrictions. While I feel their pain in that regard (but have no sympathy on the vaccine mandate issue), I'd trust the folks who have done such a nice job of managing the pandemic in Canada up to this point to make the call. (Seriously--have you looked at the numbers? The Canadian govt., public health officials, and the people of Canada make their neighbors to the South look like clowns by comparison.)

 

[scott2000]

As to the flu comparison: about as many people in the US died of covid in the last 2 weeks as die of the flu in a typical year. We may get to "flu" level soon, but at least in the US we are not there yet.

Why is it difficult to know exactly how many people die from flu? ​

There are several factors that make it difficult to determine accurate numbers of deaths caused by flu regardless of reporting. Some of the challenges in counting flu-related deaths include the following:

• the sheer volume of deaths to be counted.
• the lack of testing (not everyone that dies with an influenza-like illness is tested for flu);
• and the different coding of deaths (flu-related deaths often are a result of complications secondary to underlying medical problems, and this may be difficult to sort out).

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/faq.htm

Does CDC know the exact number of people who die from seasonal flu each year?​

CDC does not know exactly how many people die from seasonal flu each year. There are several reasons for this. First, states are not required to report individual flu illnesses or deaths among people older than 18 years old to CDC. Second...

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/faq.htm

maybe things are being handled differently now. Pretty sure there have been some changes recently. Hard to tell.

 

[john12ax7]

I don't know if this is a sincere movement, or something co-opted by special interests, as is all too common with these types of things.

Either way, why are mandates even still a thing? No reason for them at this time, the data doesn't support it. Should we legislate to protect people against themselves?

 

[fazer]

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/justin-trudeaus-ceausescu-moment?

Matt Taibbi’s take on Trudeau.

Denouncing truckers for "unacceptable views," Canada's Prime Minister skipped town rather than face evidence of his own unpopularity. Is neoliberalism finally cracking?​

 

[hodad]

Either way, why are mandates even still a thing? No reason for them at this time, the data doesn't support it.

Where is this data you guys like to speak of? (you're not the first to use that phrasing here in the last 24 hours.) Is this just the new thing that people of a certain leaning repeat without understanding, because it suits their belief system? Is there evidence that having mandatory vaxxes for truckers won't be effective? Seems like I've seen plenty of evidence that would suggest otherwise.

 

[JohnRoberts]

As has been reported elsewhere multiple countries have relaxed mandates. In the US several states have relaxed mandates already.

I can't read other people's minds as clearly as some here claim, but can imagine good and bad intentions for wanting to prolong mandates.

Argue among yourselves but be nice or you know....

JR

 

[john12ax7]

Is there evidence that having mandatory vaxxes for truckers won't be effective? Seems like I've seen plenty of evidence that would suggest otherwise.

What is the evidence and reasoning that it will be? Some estimates are vaccines are only 30% effective at preventing infection with omicron. There is some data here that suggests orders of magnitude less.

https://www.reuters.com/business/he...ve-against-omicron-bloomberg-news-2021-12-07/
What the data currently shows is vaccines are effective at preventing serious illness, not so much for infection and transmission. It wasn't always like this, but It should be ok to reevaluate positions and policies now that omicron is dominant and things have changed. A mandate at this time will mostly protect an individual from themself.

 

[hodad]

What is the evidence and reasoning that it will be? Some estimates are vaccines are only 30% effective at preventing infection with omicron.

Yes. And not being vaxxed is 0% effective. So a vaccine (and the blurb for the article mentions 2 doses, not 3) gives you a better shot at not getting the 'cron (even better with booster), and substantially reduces risk of severe illness, hospitalization, and death. THE VACCINE IS WORTHLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, do you not read the info brought to this list by me, by Matador, by crazydoc and others? Even with the partial immune escape of omicron, the vaccine has helped immensely. In fact, I think it's fair to assume we'd have been screwed without it.

 

[john12ax7]

THE VACCINE IS WORTHLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It would help if you didn't use broad characterizations and read what I actually say and have said. That is not my stance, not even remotely close. Anyone calling the vaccine worthless is taking quite a ludicrous position given the data.

Maybe look at what Denmark is doing, as they have followed the science from the beginning. One can both recognize the benefits of the vaccine and be cognizant its limitations.

 

[hodad]

It would help if you didn't use broad characterizations and read what I actually say and have said. That is not my stance, not even remotely close. Anyone calling the vaccine worthless is taking quite a ludicrous position given the data.

Fair enough. But 2 points: why, if the vaccine is useful if imperfect against omicron, is it such a problem to require international truckers to be vaccinated? From a Canadian vantage point, wouldn't you want your truck drivers vaxxed when they head to the undervaxxed "freedom"-loving US? Doesn't it make sense to have disease vectors like cross-border truckers as protected from the virus as they can be? It's not just good for them, it's good for Canada.
And as for calls for dropping all mandates: as you & I would agree, the vaxx is an imperfect protection against omicron. (And for that matter, masks are probably less reliable against omicron as well.) Nonetheless, when faced with a problem as challenging as limiting the spread of omicron, is it wise to drop mandates when they offer even somewhat limited protection? Mitigating the spread of omicron--even modestly--can have enormous payoffs in the healthcare sector, and can potentially get us to a better place faster than simply dropping all mandates (which may or may not be your position, but it is the stated position of the Canadian truckers.)

 

[JohnRoberts]

The ambassador bridge is reportedly open for traffic again, and Ottawa is negotiating with the truckers.

Canada is our largest trading partner so this needs to be resolved soon. Short term impact looks focussed on auto factories in MI and mid west, but the car companies were already challenged by chip shortages. New car prices are up something like 13% with used car prices up 40%. I have read about used Teslas selling for higher than new sticker prices.

This protest will wind down but the protest has been noticed by truckers and workers around the world so we may see more sympathy protests pop up.

IMO governments around the world need to relax their "emergency" authoritarian grip on their citizens, sooner rather than later.

JR

 

[crazydoc]

Paywall:

theglobeandmail.com

Globe editorial: You can debate whether it’s an ‘emergency,’ but the blockades can’t be allowed to continue​

The Editorial Board - Yesterday

5-6 minutes

---

Reasonable people can disagree.
They can disagree on the extent to which Canada needed vaccine mandates or passports. They can disagree on whether we should ramp up their requirements to three shots, or do away with them altogether.
Reasonable people can disagree on whether the federal government was right to have insisted that cross-border truckers be vaccinated, or whether that was more politics than public health. They can disagree on whether Prime Minister Justin Trudeau instrumentalized polarization for political gain, with the aim of wedging the Conservatives and pushing them further to the right. They can disagree on whether the last round of provincial lockdowns were accurately tailored, or the extent to which they protected health and saved lives.
Reasonable people can disagree on whether they want Doug Ford to be Premier of Ontario, or Jason Kenney as Premier of Alberta, or Justin Trudeau as Prime Minister of Canada. It’s why we have elections.
Reasonable people can even disagree on whether, in the face of blockades at border crossings and a three-weeks-and-counting truck encampment on the streets around Parliament Hill, the Trudeau government needed to invoke the never-before-used Emergencies Act.

But what no one can disagree on is this: If Canadians are to continue to live under peace, order and good government, then random people – whatever their cause – cannot be allowed to seize control of the roads in the country’s capital, or the highways at the country’s borders.
The right to protest is a sacred right, ancient and constitutional. It is guaranteed by law, and circumscribed by law. It’s a right to communicate in a public place; it is not a right to impose anything on the public by force. It’s a right to speak, not to take the audience hostage.
Over the past three weeks, Canada has seen many protests of the legal variety. For example, Toronto last weekend saw one of its regular anti-mandate and anti-vaccine demonstrations. A few hundred people assembled at Queen’s Park and then, carrying signs and banners, they marched down streets that police had temporarily closed for their benefit. Then they went home.
You can disagree with their views – and we do – but their protest was perfectly legal. What’s happened at multiple border crossings, and on the streets of Ottawa, is an entirely different story. These aren’t legal protests. They are blockades.
As such, they enjoy no protection under our laws. They are, on the contrary, a threat to the rule of law and democratic government itself. The blockades have generally been non-violent, but they are nonetheless an attempt by a tiny minority of Canadians to impose upon the large, silent, law-abiding majority of their fellow citizens.
The police always have reason to show patience and restraint, even when dealing with protesters who are breaking the law. Talk to the protesters, remind them of the rules, remind them of the consequences and encourage them to end their law-breaking. It’s how the police in Windsor, Ont., dispersed the blockade of the Ambassador Bridge, which was choking off nearly half a billion dollars of trade each day.
But at a certain point, there’s nothing left to talk about. People have to get out of the road, or the law has to make them get out of the road. At a certain point, if the rule of law isn’t enforced it isn’t the law anymore, and instead of a government by the consent of the people, we end up with a minority ruling by force.
At the borders and in Ottawa, that point has been reached, and passed. If Emergencies Act powers are used in a limited and targeted manner, to give police additional authorities to unblock blockades, they are justified. On Monday, the government notably underlined how business owners using their vehicles to blockade roads could now be threatened with punishments such as having business bank accounts frozen, or insurance cancelled, or licences revoked. There are subtler and better tools than tear gas and truncheons.
In a democratic society, reasonable people can disagree on all sorts of things. But there can be no disagreement on this: A handful of protesters don’t get to decide which streets will be open and which will be closed, or which bridges and borders will be open to trade and which will not. Who elected these blockaders? Who gave them this power? Not you. Not anyone.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I always thought Canadians were kinder and gentler Americans, but Trudeau is showing some authoritarian stripes. Has he ever sat down and talked with the truckers?

This is getting interesting, but not in a good way. Doxing supporters and using government force to suppress speech is no bueno, aye.

I really hope somebody buys a clue soon.

JR

 

[john12ax7]

Interesting that in the last 2 years so many have done a 180 on their views of blocking roads as a means of protest.

 

[murrayatuptown]

When I was a kid, I wanted to drive a garbage truck...until I smelled one.

 

[JohnRoberts]

When I was a kid, I wanted to drive a garbage truck...until I smelled one.

I was kind of dissapointed. My small town here in nowhere MS, just upgraded to modern garbage cans issued to every household. These new garbage cans have a fancy lift bar/post to facilitate hydraulically lifting the trash up into the back of modern SOTA garbage trucks. I watched on garbage pick up day as a human worker pulled my trash bag out of the fancy new garbage can and threw it into the back of the truck, using human power.

Baby steps.

JR

 

[scott2000]

They used to have those hydraulic lifts here in suburbia. Then they started doing it as you say..human power... Not sure if the trucks now even have them, or contracting company changed or what. Need to look..
Just down the road a few miles they have the trucks with the arms where the driver doesn't need to get out. One time I put 2 cans too close together at a friend's house and the driver decided to finesse them and grab them both at the same time ..

 

[JohnRoberts]

I was hoping to see a fancy truck with articulated robot arm, but only got a human handling the garbage.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to invest in the machine capable garbage cans without using a capable garbage machine. I bet those fancy garbage trucks are not cheap. I think new ones are EV with regenerative braking for all the starts and stops.

JR