Whose switch logic is in Top form this evening?

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
If you get as far as cranking: be sure you have some way to kill the engine. If mag-short harness is dubious or unplugged, tie a nylon rope to the spark plug boot so a good yank (from several feet out on the rope) will be sure to kill all spark. (Fuel shut-off works but very slow: I forgot to turn-on today and got 50 feet before it sputtered.)

I've now created a new set of potential problems.  The seat switch harness that I clipped off, thinking it was shorted to ground is apparently designed that way . . .

looking in from the rear I can see a coil of wire wrapped around neatly like an inductor around the plastic center piece between the two connector halves and feeding each half.  I still don't understand why it was designed that way.  Two lines going into an ON/OFF switch that are always shorted together before they make contact with the switch terminals.  And so now I have defeated that . .


 
PS: Life is a test, often with trick question...

Yes, I believe it is and my gut tells me that if I attempt to make a move without a full understanding of what those changes I made mean I will pay for it - something burning up or breaking etc.  So I will probably have to figure out how to put the original harness back on unless someone can see that it would be harmless either way.  And I broke one of my other rules I use in electronics:  NEVER cut off leads to anything too short to do a later splice.  I did.  Am pretty much screwed there.

 
Awesome thread!

Really makes me want to pick up a Chinese riding mower and start modding it :)

I just can't wait till you get to the part where you mount the capsules to the blades and DIY some giga-ohm grade teflon-tires to float the whole thing "in the air". BTW, how are you getting 60V out of that magneto?

Cheers,
jb
 
Relax.. it's really not that complicated... while the schematic makes it look worse than it is.

The safety switches basically do two things.  Stop the motor when you get off the seat by opening the circuit between magneto kill and ground. And prevent the starter motor from cranking if you don't have the brake set. (the brake switch also overrides the seat magneto kill switch). 

A little confusing to follow the schematic because the starter circuit need to be closed to work, and the magneto circuit needs to be open, but really that  simple in function.

If you want to go completely rouge and defeat the safety switches... (I wouldn't) you need to connect a wire to the magneto kill terminal that you can short to ground to stop the engine.

FWIW, people have been killed by riding mower accidents, and it was common to loose fingers and stuff, before all the safety cut offs. please resist the temptation to go macho... They do help prevent serious injury when "stuff" happens,
 
If you disconnect the seat switch, you can still kill the motor with the on/off switch. While the seat kill switch is handy if you fall off... 

JR
 
Right now the purposely shorted switch connector is just bothering my sense of logic - what purpose does an on/off switch serve when the incoming wires are shorted together at the connector?  It would seem to totally defeat the switch, yet apparently it doesn't.  Another path I'm not seeing.  And I now see after pulling it apart that the wire coil appears to be just to provide spring tensioning to the connector - which it also shorts together.  I got a room full of Wild Geese if anybody needs one.  ;D


 
Perhaps it was just convenient for them to connect the two wires together that way..

you seem easily distracted..

Does the lawnmower work...?

I guarantee you the repair guys don't understand as much as you already do about how it works..

JR
 
you seem easily distracted..


I tend to think out loud when under stress which is probably more distracting to others.



I'm going to start afresh tomorrow.  Some days are just full of gremlins.


 
As long as we're stopped for the night....

> buy one of those red plastic gas cans... but that company was put out of business by class action lawyers

?? Red plastic cans are available everywhere here. But...

Back 20 years I was refilling the Simplicity in a snow storm (it had a plow). I slipped, and sloshed gasoline all down my overalls. A splash on the hand is no big deal. Overalls soaked from crotch to toes BURNS.

That was about when B&S introduced their safety can. I got one. It shut-off when fuel reached the tip. Very reliably: I could walk away until the gurgle stopped. But I couldn't put it on the moving van, left it behind. Now I can only find two types: one with a manual shutoff (and too-flexxy nozzle), and one with "auto shutoff" which works poorly when new and soon sticks in the "always off" position. I have to yank out the gizmo and tape up the catch-notches to make it an arsonist's can (stays open all the time).

Neither is really right for a mower tank because there is only a hole in the top. I'd have to pump or siphon fuel over the rim before it would flow down to the carb. Also want to seal around the fuel line yet also have a large hole for re-filling.

That Bug-Stop comes in a one-use sprayer. But unlike Hudson and clones, which have a pickup tube to the top, the Bug-Stop wand hose comes off the bottom! I knew this would be handy for something, so when empty I busted the seals and washed it out. For this job I tossed the air-pump and stuck a plastic disk in the top cap (w/ small air-hole).

Real problem is that with low-mounted factory tank, the battery and solenoid go where gravity fuel wants to be. I rigged 3 boards to bridge across the dash and firewall to support the Bug-Stop tank.

There's a shutoff now. Although the needle is new, you have a point about not trusting it.

Also a large garage in the next town burned (and delayed my garage project because they hired my contractor to re-build). The story was a tractor "backfire". But as you say, a leaky needle may have been involved.

> find a proper gas tank...

Back 15 years I replaced the Simplicity with the cheapest in-stock Murray. It came with a small gravity fuel tank between engine and driver. There was lots of room and extra holes. I discovered that there was another tank, over twice as large, in other Murrays. I bought one and it fit like it was meant to go there. (Actually I had to cut-away part of a sticker: you could squint fuel level through the side with the hood closed, the squint-slot in the cowl was for the tall tank, but my model's sticker covered all the height the short tank lacked.) If I were to put money into a 1974, that's probably what I would get.

-or- There's LOTS of boats here. There are standard extra-fuel tanks for outboard motors. They lay flat, and have a hand-pump. I have to look closer at one, but I suspect one way or another they could be adapted to the mower. There's even a standard quick-fitting so you can disconnect without losing fuel and carry the tank to get more fuel (or set it on ground for easier filling).

---------------
The electric pump I bought burned-up in less than 5 gallons. It looks like a transformer that has been shafted by a hex fitting:
140.jpg


It goes tunk-tunk-tunk several times a second, different when passing air or fuel or stalled on a full carb. Now after a few minutes it stops tunking, and if I leave it powered it gets HOT. So hot it has blackened the coil. Obviously there is an iron slug inside the hex, and a coil to hump it. It looks so low-tech that I ass-umed it had some mechanical switch to break the coil and let the slug rebound. Nope. It is an NE555 and a 50V 8A HEXFET! One solder joint is dubious but that is to the coil and if it lost contact the coil would be cold not hot. Somehow it is stalling with the coil on 100%, toasted the tape around the coil and darkened the enamel on the coil winding. I suppose I should take the PCB out, load it, run it on 'scope and meter, on the stove to make it hot, and see what's failing. It is remotely possible the tractor dynamo runs over the 15V(?) rating of a '555. But the battery more often seems under-charged than over-charged. (Especially since the throttle slips and RPM is often well below 3500 rated.)

---------------

> pick up a Chinese riding mower

Are they Chinese? I think the majority of production of non-fancy brands has concentrated in MTD (Murray gave it up a few years back). And they got there with US production efficiency. Overseas shipping would add cost comparable to Chinese labor/steel cost savings. Engine production has also shrunk; Tecumseh quit a few years back. So that leaves B&S (which still boasts "made in USA", though their small kart engine looks like a classic Honda cement mixer mill), and Honda (who does a lot of casting and bolting in the USA), and Robbins(Subaru).
 
There are probably a bunch of small company mowers assembled in the US (for a while)  but I'll bet dollars to donuts the parts and subassemblies are not made here.

FWIW the replacement magneto I just bought was made in Argentina, and the replacement carburetor I bought last summer was made in Mexico.

Lawnmowers are generally a mature industry so I suspect inefficient parts of the supply chain have been well squeezed decades ago. I suspect the top of line zero turn, big dog show mowers that cost more than a small car may have more US content but even they are turning into mass market products these days.
===

Yup a gas cut off valve is cheap insurance.. outboard motor gas tanks might be the dealio...

JR

 
but even they are turning into mass market products these days.

They seem to no longer be a strictly industrial product.  In the suburbs you are whoopin' the Jonses if you have a zero turn.  My neighbor has one and he blows through his yard in half the time it takes me.  I've heard the pro lawncare guys rag on the midmarket mowers but for once a week duty on < 1 acre lots they probably hold up as well as anything else.  The used market for the professional ones stays pretty stiff because the lawn care guys are always under constant pressure to cut expenses.
 
JohnRoberts said:
PRR: Not Rube Goldberg at all ... to direct and effective, Maybe you could buy one of those red plastic gas cans... but that company was put out of business by class action lawyers.  ::) A square metal gas can might work.

JR

The largest company making plastic gas cans WAS here in Oklahoma:

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-maker-of-plastic-gas-cans-will-close-july-31/article/3694931

Bri
 
Ok.  Starting anew . . .

I get 12V coming out of the ignition switch on the org wire when the key is turned to START.

I get 0 volts at the small solenoid lead when key is turned to START (brake safety depressed, and seat occupied.  most tutorials forget to mention this)

Following the schematic you can see the clear path of the org wire from pin 5 on the ignition switch, through the safety switches and ending at the small solenoid connection.  Also notice that the PTO is NO (blade stop) in START position.  May be the heat, but why should I expect to see 12V at small solenoid wire with PTO NO?


Mower still will not crank.  Safety switch paths check good
 

Attachments

  • Murray Electrial diagram.gif
    Murray Electrial diagram.gif
    36.4 KB · Views: 5
lassoharp said:
Ok.  Starting anew . . .

I get 12V coming out of the ignition switch on the org wire when the key is turned to START.
good
I get 0 volts at the small solenoid lead when key is turned to START (brake safety depressed, and seat occupied.  most tutorials forget to mention this)
not so good

seat switch only kills spark and is disabled by clutch/brake switch.

PTO switch as shown in schematic disables the starter and re-enables the seat kill switch...

I don't know what your power take off switch is doing exactly (my puny mower doesn't have one , or a starter motor), but when safe to start that switch contact in series with starter solenoid wire should be closed, and the magneto kill wiring open... (opposite of as drawn in the schematic). 

In fact all of the safety switches are drawn in their safety/kill positions.
Following the schematic you can see the clear path of the org wire from pin 5 on the ignition switch, through the safety switches and ending at the small solenoid connection.  Also notice that the PTO is NO (blade stop) in START position.  May be the heat, but why should I expect to see 12V at small solenoid wire with PTO NO?


Mower still will not crank.  Safety switch paths check good

The PTO switch open appears to be the safe position not the start/run position.  Both the clutch NO switch and the PTO NO, need to be closed to start. Opposite of drawn.

Has your PTO switch changed or physically shifted position?

JR
 
I don't know what your power take off switch is doing exactly (my puny mower doesn't have one , or a starter motor), but when safe to start that switch contact in series with starter solenoid wire should be closed, and the magneto kill wiring open... (opposite of as drawn in the schematic).

Ok, this is good to have some confirmation there.  I missed that yesterday.



magneto kill wiring open

Is this the yellow wire shown as open connector ends right by the seat switch?



The PTO switch open appears to be the safe position not the start/run position.  Both the clutch NO switch and the PTO NO, need to be closed to start. Opposite of drawn.


Yes, and the only thing I can do when starting is depress the brake/clutch to close that switch and sit on the seat (presumably to open that circuit from being grounded, yet as from earlier posts the ends are tied together - but let's ignore that for the moment).  So I can close two, but closing the PTO means dropping the deck which can't be right.

I checked the actual position of this switch with meter, just in case schematic was drawn wrong, and found the schematic to be correct so still scratching head there.  I will go and check again just to make sure.  FWIW I lowered the deck (closed PTO) and turned the key to check for voltage at the solenoid small wire and got nothing.  My continuity checks of this path suggested I should see voltage


Has your PTO switch changed or physically shifted position?


It may have shifted slightly when I reached in to pull the harness out but I checked when reconnecting and the blade control lever is making good contact.  Also verified by doing continuity check between solenoid small lead and brake safety IN, raising and lowering the deck and the connection looked solid.


 
lassoharp said:
I don't know what your power take off switch is doing exactly (my puny mower doesn't have one , or a starter motor), but when safe to start that switch contact in series with starter solenoid wire should be closed, and the magneto kill wiring open... (opposite of as drawn in the schematic).

Ok, this is good to have some confirmation there.  I missed that yesterday.



magneto kill wiring open

Is this the yellow wire shown as open connector ends right by the seat switch?
yes...
The PTO switch open appears to be the safe position not the start/run position.  Both the clutch NO switch and the PTO NO, need to be closed to start. Opposite of drawn.


Yes, and the only thing I can do when starting is depress the brake/clutch to close that switch and sit on the seat (presumably to open that circuit from being grounded, yet as from earlier posts the ends are tied together - but let's ignore that for the moment).  So I can close two, but closing the PTO means dropping the deck which can't be right.

I checked the actual position of this switch with meter, just in case schematic was drawn wrong, and found the schematic to be correct so still scratching head there.  I will go and check again just to make sure.  FWIW I lowered the deck (closed PTO) and turned the key to check for voltage at the solenoid small wire and got nothing.  My continuity checks of this path suggested I should see voltage


Has your PTO switch changed or physically shifted position?


It may have shifted slightly when I reached in to pull the harness out but I checked when reconnecting and the blade control lever is making good contact.  Also verified by doing continuity check between solenoid small lead and brake safety IN, raising and lowering the deck and the connection looked solid.

OK I understand that the Power take off switch for your mower is connected to the deck position?

In one position the starter motor is disabled and the seat kill switch is made active again even if disabled by the clutch. So i gather in this position (as drawn in schematic) the starter will never crank and the motor will not keep running  unless your butt is in the seat,. Logically this would be the working or operating position.

The "safe to start" position would be starter solenoid path closed and seat kill switch disabled (by clutch switch).

Sounds like the PTO switch may be your problem.

JR 

 
OK I understand that the Power take off switch for your mower is connected to the deck position?

FWIW I got curious and checked voltage at small solenoid lead for following condition:

Seat occupied, clutch mashed in, deck lowered, turning key to START.  Got the full cranking voltage there.

So we know we can't start with deck lowered . . .



In one position the starter motor is disabled and the seat kill switch is made active again even if disabled by the clutch. So i gather in this position (as drawn in schematic) the starter will never crank and the motor will not keep running  unless your butt is in the seat,. Logically this would be the working or operating position.


Makes good sense to me.


Sounds like the PTO switch may be your problem

I'll recheck.

 
> can't start with deck lowered . . .

This _could_ be over-reaction to cut-off toes. Deck lowered is less chance for toes to be under when the engine starts unexpectedly.

But it did work before, right? And you would have noticed if the deck had to be dropped to crank?

Also when non-mowing (towing a cart), dropping deck to start then raising it for rough ground, stop and kill to dump then drop-start-raise would get very annoying.

Here in public, John and I have both mentioned that these interlocks are GOOD THINGS. Sneak behind my chicken-shed and I might say it different, especially on an older machine with a mature operator who has survived many close-misses with mowers, drills, table-saws, and other dangers. Or come over, put your toe under my mower deck, turn the key. Seat, PTO, clutch/brake.... doesn't matter, your toes will get trimmed.
 
But it did work before, right? And you would have noticed if the deck had to be dropped to crank?

Yes, and that was why the current troubleshooting results were baffling.


Later this evening I poked around the deck switch again and discovered some extra wires taped and tucked beside the switch.  Started pulling them out - one was odd out color - blue and both were smaller gauge than stock wires. the end of one of them apparently was getting caught in the deck lever inside the the frame.  I did a continuity check on that section of wire from the solenoid wire and raised and lowered the deck several times and saw it flip flop from short to open.  Then reached hand in there and jostled the harness and got same type readings.  So that seemed to explain the deck down-cranking voltage getting through.  I scrubbed some more grease off the incoming harness wires and it looks like at least one of the strange wires is going into the harness along with the normal orange wires. The one I could see (peeking through body with flashlight situation) was also orange but smaller gauge.  The blue one that was getting caught in the deck lever  appeared to be going down to the brake switch. Will have to push mower up on lifts and crawl under to get better access.  I'm wondering if the previous owner had tried to bypass the safety switches.  The day before I had also noticed an extra wire coming out of the seat safety switch with a pin connector at the end - short run just dangling.  I looked around for a loose wire with the mating connector but could find none.  Well, at least I feel like I know the circuit well enough now to remove anything that's not supposed to be there.  As long as it doesn't tie into the magneto feed there should only be two easily traceable lines through the safety switches.
 
I publicly and privately endorse keeping the  safety switches.  I recall as a kid growing up, one of my classmates had a brother missing a finger tip due to a lawn mower accident. While I was working at PV I recall hearing about a dealer who was killed in a riding mower accident, and pitcher Mark Fidrych was killed in a PTO accident when his clothing got tangled up in a spinning PTO shaft (on a dump truck).  OK so the last one doesn't quite apply but safety switches can help prevent accidents.

Good find on the extra wiring around the deck switch. By now the fog should be lifting around the measurements that did not agree with the schematic.

Figure out how you want it to work and make it so...

JR

 
Whoa, I didn't realize "The Bird" was killed that way.  I still remember him in his heyday on Monday Night Baseball years ago.

The short-open readings make much more sense with what was happening.  I went ahead and ordered a new PTO switch assembly.  May as well get it all in one go.

 
Back
Top