Wires...Interesting facts...
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northsiderap
Well-known member
I shot myself before I finished that.
Maybe I'll develop a cable with an impedance of 6k to make my preamps happy...
Maybe I'll develop a cable with an impedance of 6k to make my preamps happy...
pstamler
Well-known member
It can be fairly easily shown that wires cannot carry signal accurately. It can also be shown that it's impossible for a digital recorder to record music accurately, and equally impossible for an analog recorder to do so. Not that it matters, since it's impossible for a microphone to generate the signal properly to begin with, and equally impossible for a speaker to reproduce it properly. For that matter, it's also impossible to tune a guitar properly. (For that one, I can vouch.)
So? So enjoy the music.
Peace,
Paul
So? So enjoy the music.
Peace,
Paul
pucho812
Well-known member
[quote author="pstamler"]It can be fairly easily shown that wires cannot carry signal accurately. It can also be shown that it's impossible for a digital recorder to record music accurately, and equally impossible for an analog recorder to do so. Not that it matters, since it's impossible for a microphone to generate the signal properly to begin with, and equally impossible for a speaker to reproduce it properly. For that matter, it's also impossible to tune a guitar properly. (For that one, I can vouch.)
So? So enjoy the music.
Peace,
Paul[/quote]
true true even the human ear doesn't reproduce efficently I recall fletcher munsen(sp)proving that. But in reality good wire will do along side a decent system and your good to go. I once heard wire that cost 6000.00 for a pair of speaker wire. Was it really that much better not really. most people forget that its not what we record to or with but what we actually record. Good songs and lyrics will sell regardless of how it was recorded.
So? So enjoy the music.
Peace,
Paul[/quote]
true true even the human ear doesn't reproduce efficently I recall fletcher munsen(sp)proving that. But in reality good wire will do along side a decent system and your good to go. I once heard wire that cost 6000.00 for a pair of speaker wire. Was it really that much better not really. most people forget that its not what we record to or with but what we actually record. Good songs and lyrics will sell regardless of how it was recorded.
Brian Roth
Well-known member
OK, so try to "zero out" the STUFF in the signal chain. For speaker wires, I suggest some FAT extension cords from Home Depot (ie, 16 or 14 guage..and slice off the "Edison" plugs on each end), or wind your own...
Take a a pair of #12 stranded THHN conductors, chuck them into a vise at one end, and an electric drill (just to make this "magic"...it needs to be a rechargeable drill since an AC-mains-powered drill will distort the copper molecules.....NOT!!!).
Sadly, this project relies on FACTS not myth. Fat, stranded wires provide a low resistance (and hence, impedance) in the path to the speaker.
BTW, if anyone wants to send me a few thousand dollars extra, I'll include little devices (made from virgin/old-growth trees) that stand the conductors off of your floor. Ohhh...maybe GLASS is better. No?? OK Teflon.
I'll tell you they make everything sound better, and you WILL believe it since you sent me so much money.
Bri
Take a a pair of #12 stranded THHN conductors, chuck them into a vise at one end, and an electric drill (just to make this "magic"...it needs to be a rechargeable drill since an AC-mains-powered drill will distort the copper molecules.....NOT!!!).
Sadly, this project relies on FACTS not myth. Fat, stranded wires provide a low resistance (and hence, impedance) in the path to the speaker.
BTW, if anyone wants to send me a few thousand dollars extra, I'll include little devices (made from virgin/old-growth trees) that stand the conductors off of your floor. Ohhh...maybe GLASS is better. No?? OK Teflon.
I'll tell you they make everything sound better, and you WILL believe it since you sent me so much money.
Bri
Viitalahde
Well-known member
I use midgets as cable holders. 3m speaker wires x2 = 4 midgets. Pay them 400 ? a month = 1200 ?.
Svart
Well-known member
That article had me laughing and then damn near crying.
oh boy..
strand jumping.. another chuckle.
:green:
because the copper has a higher crystal count.. :green:
oh boy..
strand jumping.. another chuckle.
:green:
bcarso
Well-known member
One does so wish for some truly quantitative estimates of these putative effects.
I was frankly shocked that after all of the mechanical magnetic stuff he lulled himself into complacency about an isolated current-carrying conductor! What about the Earth's field---and worse, other static fields in the vicinity from transducer magnets, etc.? The mind reels...
I can see a whole mini-industry springing up in which the audio consultant, after his survey with the magnetometer, routes crucial cables and repositions equipment based on the local magnetic field:
"Sir/Madam, I hope you didn't get too attached to the view of the lake from your listening position over here. I'm afraid we're going to have to change all that, and rotate this arrangement by about 63.4 degrees..." :razz:
I was frankly shocked that after all of the mechanical magnetic stuff he lulled himself into complacency about an isolated current-carrying conductor! What about the Earth's field---and worse, other static fields in the vicinity from transducer magnets, etc.? The mind reels...
I can see a whole mini-industry springing up in which the audio consultant, after his survey with the magnetometer, routes crucial cables and repositions equipment based on the local magnetic field:
"Sir/Madam, I hope you didn't get too attached to the view of the lake from your listening position over here. I'm afraid we're going to have to change all that, and rotate this arrangement by about 63.4 degrees..." :razz:
Emperor-TK
Well-known member
It's easy to inject some bad science into an article filled with real facts and formulae. Here are two really bad leaps that I spotted:
It is probably correct that black will have a higher k value than white PVC. To what degree, I don't know. To say that "purity" has anything to do with it is idiotic. Audiophools are really big on the "purity" concept it seems. The reason that black coloring increases the k value is because it is made with carbon, which of course is fairly conductive. Suppose that you were adding PTFE or PE to the PVC, would the "dielectric properties degrade"? So any impurity is bad? As a chemical engineer, I can also state with confidence that there is no such thing as a "pure" polymer that you can buy today. It's a dog's-breakfast of chemicals to say the least.
Talk about bad conclusions. I can't say if he is right or wrong, but what a bullshit argument. He proves that different types of copper have different size crystaline regions, period. He offers no science to back up how the crystal structure effects the sound, and even reminds us that the effects are difficult to measure with test equipment. This is the equivalent of discussing the chemical and physical differences between natural and synthetic fibers, and then making the statement that music sounds better when you are wearing natural fibers (which should be obvious from the SEM images). Funny how grain boundaries make the sound "grainy", huh?
-Chris
It is probably correct that black will have a higher k value than white PVC. To what degree, I don't know. To say that "purity" has anything to do with it is idiotic. Audiophools are really big on the "purity" concept it seems. The reason that black coloring increases the k value is because it is made with carbon, which of course is fairly conductive. Suppose that you were adding PTFE or PE to the PVC, would the "dielectric properties degrade"? So any impurity is bad? As a chemical engineer, I can also state with confidence that there is no such thing as a "pure" polymer that you can buy today. It's a dog's-breakfast of chemicals to say the least.
Talk about bad conclusions. I can't say if he is right or wrong, but what a bullshit argument. He proves that different types of copper have different size crystaline regions, period. He offers no science to back up how the crystal structure effects the sound, and even reminds us that the effects are difficult to measure with test equipment. This is the equivalent of discussing the chemical and physical differences between natural and synthetic fibers, and then making the statement that music sounds better when you are wearing natural fibers (which should be obvious from the SEM images). Funny how grain boundaries make the sound "grainy", huh?
-Chris
bcarso
Well-known member
Veering off topic: I notice one guy he references about impedance matching has the "amplification component" Best Product of the Year award from Stereophile, with his DarTZeel NHB-108 Model One power amp.
I can't help but giggle when I see that name since it is close to an anagram of one of the superhuman senses of Joe, the automaton in the hilarious old sci fi story by "Lewis Padgett" (Kuttner and Moore), The Proud Robot---namely its tarzeel :green:
At least Hervé Delétraz has a sense of humor (maybe he even knows that story) for the front panel sports a goofy face-like arrangement of big indicator lamps and central pushbutton switch, labelled Left Eye, Right Eye, and Power Nose :razz:
But then what do you want for a trifling $18,181---probably barely pays for the "... six transistors per polarity side from input to output, and only a single pair of bipolar output transistors per channel."
I can't help but giggle when I see that name since it is close to an anagram of one of the superhuman senses of Joe, the automaton in the hilarious old sci fi story by "Lewis Padgett" (Kuttner and Moore), The Proud Robot---namely its tarzeel :green:
At least Hervé Delétraz has a sense of humor (maybe he even knows that story) for the front panel sports a goofy face-like arrangement of big indicator lamps and central pushbutton switch, labelled Left Eye, Right Eye, and Power Nose :razz:
But then what do you want for a trifling $18,181---probably barely pays for the "... six transistors per polarity side from input to output, and only a single pair of bipolar output transistors per channel."
So, my second post in this great board is a story I experienced some years ago.
I needed some cables for my new loudspeakers. So I went to the nearest HiFI-shop. The shop called itself "hi-end", but I didn't mind the title, just wanted to have two cables ASAP.
After a long consultation that I didn't want, the shop assistant recommended a pair of whatever-he-called-them-hi-end-stuff. I just thought "OK, boy you've won" and wanted to put the 20 bucks on the counter.
As I pulled out my wallet the shop assistant said "But you know, HOW to connect them?!"
I gave him a confused look. :?
Me: "Yes, of course: phase to the correct phase and that's it"
shop assistant: "NO, NO, NO. You have to mind the DIRECTION of the cables"
Me: :shock:
shop assistant: "Yes! the cable was drawn in a certain DIRECTION, and so you have to connect it that way beacause the electrons flow better this way..."
I left the shop at once head shaking and took a phone wire to hook up the speakers. Still sounds fine...
I needed some cables for my new loudspeakers. So I went to the nearest HiFI-shop. The shop called itself "hi-end", but I didn't mind the title, just wanted to have two cables ASAP.
After a long consultation that I didn't want, the shop assistant recommended a pair of whatever-he-called-them-hi-end-stuff. I just thought "OK, boy you've won" and wanted to put the 20 bucks on the counter.
As I pulled out my wallet the shop assistant said "But you know, HOW to connect them?!"
I gave him a confused look. :?
Me: "Yes, of course: phase to the correct phase and that's it"
shop assistant: "NO, NO, NO. You have to mind the DIRECTION of the cables"
Me: :shock:
shop assistant: "Yes! the cable was drawn in a certain DIRECTION, and so you have to connect it that way beacause the electrons flow better this way..."
I left the shop at once head shaking and took a phone wire to hook up the speakers. Still sounds fine...
Svart
Well-known member
It still makes me wonder if the things we like about a specific sound are truly of the sound itself or of all the associated component's shortcomings..
We tend to like the "discrete" opamp though it has obvious design issues that most purists attempt to eradicate in system design.. its usually slower, usually has many excessive lead lengths leading to capacitance issues, devices tend to have varying tempcos and can require extensive matching.. and so forth.. yet the IC is nothing but a smaller version of this, usually faster, shorter traces, all transistors are on the same die made by the same machine and are in most reasonable terms "matched"..
but we hate on them all day long.. because they don't sound the same.
so how can something that was designed as something "better" be that much worse? maybe they are "better" but what we tend to like about the discrete opamp are the effects of it's shortcomings..?
so who's to say that the same isn't true for everything else that's associated with it?
who can claim valves to be "pure" in reality? but they DO sound better
We tend to like the "discrete" opamp though it has obvious design issues that most purists attempt to eradicate in system design.. its usually slower, usually has many excessive lead lengths leading to capacitance issues, devices tend to have varying tempcos and can require extensive matching.. and so forth.. yet the IC is nothing but a smaller version of this, usually faster, shorter traces, all transistors are on the same die made by the same machine and are in most reasonable terms "matched"..
but we hate on them all day long.. because they don't sound the same.
so how can something that was designed as something "better" be that much worse? maybe they are "better" but what we tend to like about the discrete opamp are the effects of it's shortcomings..?
so who's to say that the same isn't true for everything else that's associated with it?
who can claim valves to be "pure" in reality? but they DO sound better
Svart
Well-known member
AMEN.. :thumb:
featherpillow
Well-known member
Are you CRAZY man? The capacitive inductance of midgets is OFF the charts! Didn't you read the article in Smug Audiophile Monthly?
tk@halmi
Well-known member
Ohhhhhhhh, the agony!!!
I cannot stop wondering if people originating articles like that have stopped listening and enjoying music altogether? In my garage I often listen to music using a $99 boombox and I enjoy it immensly.
It is really easy to capture and enjoy the essence of a performance even at low fidelity. It is saddening to see when the focus on quality becomes a debilitating obsession. It sucks the fun out of music.
I cannot stop wondering if people originating articles like that have stopped listening and enjoying music altogether? In my garage I often listen to music using a $99 boombox and I enjoy it immensly.
It is really easy to capture and enjoy the essence of a performance even at low fidelity. It is saddening to see when the focus on quality becomes a debilitating obsession. It sucks the fun out of music.
Viitalahde
Well-known member
[quote author="tk@halmi"]I often listen to music using a $99 boombox and I enjoy it immensly.[/quote]
Same here, we have a 200 ? Sony micro-stereo system in our living room, and it has a nice sound enough to enjoy the music. Homogenizes everything, bad records don't sound as bad and so on.
Actually, I have no trouble listening to good music on 30? boom box. But I couldn't stand listening to bad music on a 30,000? system. :wink:
Same here, we have a 200 ? Sony micro-stereo system in our living room, and it has a nice sound enough to enjoy the music. Homogenizes everything, bad records don't sound as bad and so on.
Actually, I have no trouble listening to good music on 30? boom box. But I couldn't stand listening to bad music on a 30,000? system. :wink:
bcarso
Well-known member
[quote author="PRR"]> Is everything really SO bad?...
Yes.
Screw the wires: speakers and rooms REALLY SUCK.[/quote]
As I may have mentioned before, when people attempt to engage in discussions of cable effects Floyd Toole, ever the diplomat, says "I'm concerned with the ~3dB effects right now."
Yes.
Screw the wires: speakers and rooms REALLY SUCK.[/quote]
As I may have mentioned before, when people attempt to engage in discussions of cable effects Floyd Toole, ever the diplomat, says "I'm concerned with the ~3dB effects right now."
