WTB: Western Electric 111C or similar audio transformers

[vintagelove]

We should probably move this to another forum to discuss.

Something I should add is that we're assuming we're actually meeting the same thing - a WE111C. That transformer was produced over a long period of time and there may be variations in cores or winding that while meeting original spec make a difference in how we perceive things.

Also, any transformer will be sensitive to source impedance etc so any variation there will create differences in subjective experience.

I was thinking the same thing. They were made for a LONG time, and in different locations. CJ here posted some of the cores he saw were different. So, these things could very well account for different experiences.

 

[Jelly]

I wish I'd read this yesterday! I just impulse bought a pair of WE111C xfmrs and a "Mastering Saturation" box form Van Daal Electronics.

https://vandaal-electronics.com/product/masteringsaturation/
Hopefully the 24VDC inject and messing with the resistance will give me something interesting...Has anyone messed with this style of saturation box? ...It says it's based on a Bob Katz design. I'm also looking for a pair of UTC A20 xfmrs for this box if anyone has any they'd like to sell? Or if anyone has the pinout for a Stancor WF-30 I'd appreciate a copy...

 

[KA-Electonics.com]

Bob Katz shares his transformer color box with REP-111 measurements.

https://www.proaudiodesignforum.com/forum/php/viewtopic.php?p=17360#p17360

 

[Jelly]

Bob Katz shares his REP-111 measurements.

https://www.proaudiodesignforum.com/forum/php/viewtopic.php?p=17360#p17360

That’s the one! Thanks for the link

 

[MisterCMRR]

I wish I'd read this yesterday! I just impulse bought a pair of WE111C xfmrs and a "Mastering Saturation" box form Van Daal Electronics.

https://vandaal-electronics.com/product/masteringsaturation/
Hopefully the 24VDC inject and messing with the resistance will give me something interesting...Has anyone messed with this style of saturation box? ...It says it's based on a Bob Katz design. I'm also looking for a pair of UTC A20 xfmrs for this box if anyone has any they'd like to sell? Or if anyone has the pinout for a Stancor WF-30 I'd appreciate a copy...

Actually, Bob's design (as he explains in the thread at Pro Audio) was inspired by a post I made in January about factors that increase transformer distortion. Then he asked me a series of detail questions starting in July as he experimented with a prototype. I'm not trying to "steal his thunder," but just set the record straight about origination of the design. I'm not as visible as Bob Katz, so I just thought I'd raise my hand and wave, LOL.

 

[weiss]

Thanks for sharing this info. Would love to hear some audio demos btw.

 

[Jelly]

Actually, Bob's design (as he explains in the thread at Pro Audio) was inspired by a post I made in January about factors that increase transformer distortion. Then he asked me a series of detail questions starting in July as he experimented with a prototype. I'm not trying to "steal his thunder," but just set the record straight about origination of the design. I'm not as visible as Bob Katz, so I just thought I'd raise my hand and wave, LOL.

I'm glad you clarified this. The first I'd heard about it was from the Van Daal website where they credited Katz, so I went with that.

As for the box itself...I got mine in a week or two ago. The build quality is good, though the thump when switching through the various settings is annoying. I got it built by Van Daal(they also offer a kit) and installed the transformers myself to save some cash. I installed it with a pair of the WE REP 111Cs and WF30s both with matched date codes. Now, I'VE ONLY TRIED IT ON A COUPLE THINGS SO FAR so take my reaction with a grain of salt, but this is the most transparent tool in my studio to the point where I wasn't sure I hooked everything up right(I actually am sure, I double checked). The most I noticed was the drop in level when turning up the dials on the series resistors. With the dc inject at full I still had to really drive the input to get anything noticeable, and it went from barely anything almost immediately to unusable distortion(imo). Maybe I just need to better dial in the sweet spot. I'll probably take it up to my friend's shop and hook it up to the Prism to run some sweeps through it and get a visual on what it's actually doing.

With that said, I definitely don't have "Mastering Engineer ears" and I'm not one who frequently sits around listening to demos of $10K mastering compressors doing 1db of GR or A B comparisons of 2520 clones if you catch my drift...I've played in loud bands for the last 20 years and it's taken it's toll. But imo this piece sounds like a $1800 empty box that happens to look cool.

Either way I'm glad I came to my own opinion as I think everyone should. For what it's worth I still like the concept of the box and I have some different pairs of transformers on the way(smaller and cheaper as mentioned earlier in this thread) to try out so I'm sure I'll find something that suits my work flow.

FYI I maybe listing a pair on REP 111C with matching date codes soon if anyone is interested...

 

[Jelly]

Actually, Bob's design (as he explains in the thread at Pro Audio) was inspired by a post I made in January about factors that increase transformer distortion. Then he asked me a series of detail questions starting in July as he experimented with a prototype. I'm not trying to "steal his thunder," but just set the record straight about origination of the design. I'm not as visible as Bob Katz, so I just thought I'd raise my hand and wave, LOL.

I came across an older forum where there was this link of sweeps posted about your design and I was hoping you could help make sense of them for me. The first couple seem to just be noise floor(correct me if I'm wrong), but the couple that caught my eye were further down where you see a 60Hz tone. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting what I'm seeing but it looks like the first harmonic is around -60db...?

 

[MisterCMRR]

If I'm interpreting these plots correctly, the top one is "direct" and bypasses the transformer altogether. The other plots show the effect of increasing DC current flow in the transformer winding. Without DC, most transformer distortion is odd-order harmonics (3rd, 5th, 7th, etc) since the magnetic non-linearity is symmetrical around zero. Injecting DC makes the non-linearity asymmetrical and increases the even-order harmonics (2nd, 4th, 6th, etc). Note that all harmonic distortion occurs at high signal levels and lower frequency, where stronger magnetic fields are created in the transformer's core.

 

[scott2000]

I was under the impression that direct was the transformer without the dc...
but I was under the impression this was a BM thread..

 

[Jelly]

If I'm interpreting these plots correctly, the top one is "direct" and bypasses the transformer altogether. The other plots show the effect of increasing DC current flow in the transformer winding. Without DC, most transformer distortion is odd-order harmonics (3rd, 5th, 7th, etc) since the magnetic non-linearity is symmetrical around zero. Injecting DC makes the non-linearity asymmetrical and increases the even-order harmonics (2nd, 4th, 6th, etc). Note that all harmonic distortion occurs at high signal levels and lower frequency, where stronger magnetic fields are created in the transformer's core.

Interesting. Admittedly I wasn't very conscious of the frequency content that I ran through these transformers when first listening and am realizing the material was mainly midrange content. I'll have to try and drive something more bass heavy through them and see if I can get more of the character I was hoping for out of the low end.

 

[Jelly]

After running some loud bass into these I'm able to get some character I like. The chain I've been messing with is DAW output into the line in of my Studer 069 mixer(which is xfmr balanced and adds it's own thing), then using the high output of the Studer into the Saturation box and back into the DAW. However, I'm having to slam signal into the Saturation box and crank the dc inject to get the flavor I like(and anything I'd consider noticeable), then use the series resistors to attenuate the signal(which also changes the sound) in order to not clip on the way back into my DAW. It's my understanding that the series resistors are used to manipulate the impedance of the transformers to change how they perform and not to be used as attenuators.

I understand that this was designed as "Mastering Saturation" and therefore implies a certain amount of subtlety. Unfortunately, I still can't help but feel like this design wasn't fully realized. It would be very useful to be able to adjust all the parameters to their max settings(with a +4dBu input) and still be able to get a useable output without using the series resistors as I did.

I look forward to trying some other transformers in this box.

 

[lassoharp]

So somebody is taking super $$$ vintage transformers, that were, btw, expensive to begin with because they were designed to have wide freq response and low distortion - and deliberately running DC through the windings to make them distort and do unnatural things? Is that what I'm seeing here? And, people are doing this because why? Because the sound they are hearing is somehow not good enough such that the addition of this one thing, this one special thing is going to make it into something it could not possibly ever be without the use of this one special thing?

The use of controls that look like combination locks portrays a sense of humor and I can relate to that. You know, you'd have to squint and strain your hearing, even in a dead silent room to detect the fleeting sound of those tumblers falling into place. Then the whole room is jumping up and down with excitement - "We heard it - We heard it!!!!!!" Kind of like when the engineer replays the isolated passage of music back to do an A/B comparison for the 42nd time as he explains to the band how the processed version is now much more . . . . . (insert your fav sonic adjectives here, suffixed by "-centric" of course!)

If the idea is to booger up the sound in that manner, the immediate answer would seem to be- try anything . . . . . do we need a coin flip to pick from upscale vintage market price monstrosities or the pile that would go into the garbage can if it weren't for ebay? What is subtle to the audio is an out of control sledgehammer on the wallet in some cases.

 

[Jelly]

So somebody is taking super $$$ vintage transformers, that were, btw, expensive to begin with because they were designed to have wide freq response and low distortion - and deliberately running DC through the windings to make them distort and do unnatural things? Is that what I'm seeing here? And, people are doing this because why? Because the sound they are hearing is somehow not good enough such that the addition of this one thing, this one special thing is going to make it into something it could not possibly ever be without the use of this one special thing?

The use of controls that look like combination locks portrays a sense of humor and I can relate to that. You know, you'd have to squint and strain your hearing, even in a dead silent room to detect the fleeting sound of those tumblers falling into place. Then the whole room is jumping up and down with excitement - "We heard it - We heard it!!!!!!" Kind of like when the engineer replays the isolated passage of music back to do an A/B comparison for the 42nd time as he explains to the band how the processed version is now much more . . . . . (insert your fav sonic adjectives here, suffixed by "-centric" of course!)

If the idea is to booger up the sound in that manner, the immediate answer would seem to be- try anything . . . . . do we need a coin flip to pick from upscale vintage market price monstrosities or the pile that would go into the garbage can if it weren't for ebay? What is subtle to the audio is an out of control sledgehammer on the wallet in some cases.

What I think you're implying(though admittedly is unclear to me) can be said about anything in the world of pro audio. I like to make up my own mind rather than derive my conclusions solely on the opinions of others.

 

[scott2000]

I like to make up my own mind rather than derive my conclusions solely on the opinions of others.

It's also sometimes nice to know that others have the room and ginormous speakers to be able to hear things a little more than mere mortals. But that's a lot of trust when competing with your own two ears and the thing that resides between them so just doing it seems an impossible task. Not saying that's the case with this box. It's unclear if the jury is out on it...

 

[Jelly]

It's also sometimes nice to know that others have the room and ginormous speakers to be able to hear things a little more than mere mortals. But that's a lot of trust when competing with your own two ears and the thing that resides between them so just doing it seems an impossible task. Not saying that's the case with this box. It's unclear if the jury is out on it...

I agree; I try to leave mastering to the mastering engineers. I don't even have a decent low end monitoring system therefore the low lows in my material I tend to lean on my mastering engineer to tame. I never really intended to use this box for what it was designed(mastering/mix bus)but rather an all around color box like the OP's original post indicated. I primarily make music that falls into the ambient/electroacoustic genre which relies heavily on texture. Transformers can change the sound in a pleasing way to my ears and using things unconventionally is my favorite way to experiment. A box designed to abuse transformers and exploit their oddities is right up my alley.