XLR cable conundrum

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Hi guys, its me again...your favorite annoying noob.

So I had an interesting dilemma today. A friend of mine bought a long xlr cable from guitar center, and there was quite a bit of white noise. It's about a 30 ft xlr cable, generic. I unscrewed the connector, and noticed, 1 - ground, 2 hot, 3 cold...and then part of the ground that goes to 1 (half of the copper strands), is soldered to the metal tab.

Why is this like this? Is this how it's supposed to be? I thought it was supposed to be 1-ground, 2-hot, 3-cold, and Bob's your uncle.

Personally I use CAT 6e or higher STP (shielded twisted pair) for audio cables.

I connect one pair on pin 2/3 the remaining three pairs on pin 1 and shields on the metal shell tab.

This works universally, but is best with equipment modified (or designed from the outset) with case to mains earth and pin 1 as "audio ground".

The original use with pin 1 as shield/earth because de facto invalid when transformer coupling was replaced by electronically balanced in/out, which was in the early 70's except for film sound.

The fact that the old folksy ways still hang around are promoted as gold standard against any sense shows how resilient tradition is.

Thor
 
Ahhhhh ok! So it depends on where pin 1 is connected on said device. What about a Sony C100 condenser microphone into a mic preamp of the interface? The Sony C100 XLR diagram attached.
Microphones are a special case, as they're hanging out there alone, not connected to earth via a U-ground utility plug. Between devices that are, care is needed to avoid the inevitable voltage drop causing a 60Hz current to flow in a shield that induces hum electro-magnetically in signal conductors. For these interconnects, shields are connected to female XLR pin 1 at the source end, but kept open at the destination end male. An exception is in high RF environments (radio transmitters) where at the destination the shield is connected through a capacitor that shorts the RF, but blocks LF hum. Finally, it’s up to the device designer to collect all pin 1’s to the common ground, usually one point in the power supply.
 
Microphones are a special case, as they're hanging out there alone, not connected to earth via a U-ground utility plug. Between devices that are, care is needed to avoid the inevitable voltage drop causing a 60Hz current to flow in a shield that induces hum electro-magnetically in signal conductors. For these interconnects, shields are connected to female XLR pin 1 at the source end, but kept open at the destination end male. An exception is in high RF environments (radio transmitters) where at the destination the shield is connected through a capacitor that shorts the RF, but blocks LF hum. Finally, it’s up to the device designer to collect all pin 1’s to the common ground, usually one point in the power supply.

OTOH:

A Practical Interference Free Audio System (Part 2)

https://www.emcstandards.co.uk/file...oise_for_emcj_may_02_pdf_version_4_may_02.pdf


10 Conclusion

For many audio engineers that have been continuously working in the industry for as long as I have (nearly 40 years), most of the information in this article will seem like sacrilege. I too, thought that it was all pretty far-fetched, when I first learned of the techniques necessary for designing electronic components and systems to be able to pass the EMC Directive. You will know all the arguments against such concepts, and I have personally rehearsed them too. My interest in even trying out some of the techniques described here, was brought about by my sheer frustration in spending hours and hours chasing hum, buzz and RF interference noises during component or system design, testing and commissioning, year-in and year-out, rather than keeping within the law.



It was with much trepidation that the first basic system was put together with all I/O cable shields bonded at each end, and mesh grounding techniques used between the console, local and remote racks. Many people attended the first installation, just to get a look at my face when the hum got so loud that loudspeaker cones would leave their cabinets horizontally. We were all in for a big surprise. Instead of loud and uncontrollable noise - there was silence. After some moments, a distant voice echoed my own thoughts: “Is the system turned on yet?” Three different voices answered “yes”. The owner of the dissenting voice who muttered: “It can’t be.”, pushed a fader to “+10” and pressed the appropriate play button. Everyone ducked as high performance audio filled the room, very loudly indeed.



None of the information in this article is just “theory”. All of the techniques described here are based on practical experience with practical components and systems. I have put in some additional physics to help explain why the techniques work, and probably got a bit “carried away” with the extra information in sections 8 and 9. But the more I learn about how to use these techniques, the more detail I find necessary to include in the explanation of why it works.



Note that I started with the safety aspects of electronic system design. We all need to be able work safely. Star ground power systems can provide good safety, but only at power frequencies. Today’s audio systems must be able control interference phenomenon many tens of MHz above the required audio pass band, due to the necessity of incorporating processor controlled devices that have become part of the system specifications. Unfortunately, even well designed and maintained star ground systems cannot help us with high frequency interference control. But few star ground systems remain safe over the longer term. They tend to degenerate into multi-ground-loop nightmares. I come across star ground systems that have deteriorated so badly over the years, that engineers have to disconnect the protective ground conductors on the AC power input cables of some equipment, just to be able to obtain a reasonable noise floor, disregarding the safety risks this introduces. This problem is certainly exacerbated by large numbers of audio equipment still being designed with incorrect shield termination methods (and other EMC design deficiencies). However, the old methods of eliminating ground loops, but leaving the driving potentials that cause the current to flow in place, must now be considered to be a retreat from good design practice.



Many audio experts still insist that bonding audio cable shields to ground at both ends produce noise artefacts called SCIN (Shield Current Induced Noise), due to the imbalances in balanced audio cables. In practice, the input and output filter techniques discussed in section 7, have no difficulty in controlling such problems, as well as providing excellent EMC. Now, even if it could be proved that lifting the shield at one end gives measurably better results for audio band noise tests - this is no use to those of us that must use processor controlled boxes within an audio system (analogue or fully digital).



Only fully shielded, filtered, and mesh bonded cable structures stand any chance of being able to control the overall interference problems associated with this type of audio/digital control system, give good sound quality, and produce a safer working environment. Such systems are also easier to design and less costly to test and commission [3 and 6]. Better still, you don’t have to “fiddle about” trying to figure out which end of the cable shield to bond to ground, or which to “lift”. Much less frustrating, and a more efficient way of working.



Customers who specify complex computer controlled audio systems, get rightly upset when interference couples with the cable system and causes the installation to malfunction. At the same time, they insist on the highest quality audio performance, and a safe working environment. Since the techniques described in this article achieve all three criteria extremely well, they should now be considered to be the best engineering practices for pro-audio systems.



References

[1]IEC 61000-5-2:1997 “Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) – Part 5: Installation and mitigation guidelines – Section 2: Earthing and cabling

[2]“EMC for Systems and Installations”, Tim Williams and Keith Armstrong, Newnes, 2000, ISBN 0 7506 4167 3 (www.newnespress.com)

[3]“Bonding cable shields at both ends to reduce noise”, Keith Armstrong and Tony Waldron, EMC + Compliance Journal, May 02 (www.compliance-club.com).

[4]Journal of the AES: Volume 43, Number 6, 1995

[5]“The Keith Armstrong Portfolio”, EMC + Compliance Journal, www.compliance-club.com/KeithArmstrongPortfolio

[6]“Designing for Interference-free Audio System Components”, Tony Waldron, EMC + Compliance Journal, July 02 (EMC Information Centre - The EMC Journal (Free in the UK))



Tony Waldron is Technical Manager for CADAC Electronics PLC. Sound Designer at The Royal Danish Theatre in Copenhagen (1979-81) and Head of Sound at The National Theatre, London (1983-89).[email protected] Home - Cadac
 
I'm sure the XLR Pin 1 to ground or not to ground has been beaten to death on this forum. What worked for me as a location recording film mixer, was the very old movie industry practice of only attaching the XLR pin 1 shield to the shell at the lowest potential end (usually the microphone), and let the shield float at the other end to prevent ground loops. With this configuration, you have electrostatic shielding (for RFI) and no ground loops or currents.
 
I'm sure the XLR Pin 1 to ground or not to ground has been beaten to death on this forum. What worked for me as a location recording film mixer, was the very old movie industry practice of only attaching the XLR pin 1 shield to the shell at the lowest potential end (usually the microphone), and let the shield float at the other end to prevent ground loops. With this configuration, you have electrostatic shielding (for RFI) and no ground loops or currents.

How do you get a "Ground Loop" with a microphone ? As it's not grounded independently of the micpre input ? Or is the issue related to how phantom power is implemented ?
Additionally - RFI environment is very different now compared to not so long ago and previously popular practices may not be so reliable now.
 
How do you get a "Ground Loop" with a microphone ? As it's not grounded independently of the micpre input ? Or is the issue related to how phantom power is implemented ?
Additionally - RFI environment is very different now compared to not so long ago and previously popular practices may not be so reliable now.
Tube mics typically have an external power supply that may ground the mic independently. Same with P48 that's delivered from an outboard mains-connected PS.

There are also limited cases where a mic may be 'grounded' through physical contact with the mic stand (depending on how the mic stand is placed and what else it may be in contact with). FWIW.
 
Tube mics typically have an external power supply that may ground the mic independently.
Yes. Although in the context of a "location recording film mixer I think a Valve (hey I'm in the UK 🙂) micrphone is unlikely

Same with P48 that's delivered from an outboard mains-connected PS.
Okay point taken wrt that particular case.

There are also limited cases where a mic may be 'grounded' through physical contact with the mic stand (depending on how the mic stand is placed and what else it may be in contact with). FWIW.

True. But I'd say the correct action there would be to sort that at the mic stand rather than compromise on shielding.
 
Yes. Although in the context of a "location recording film mixer I think a Valve (hey I'm in the UK 🙂) micrphone is unlikely
...
Okay point taken wrt that particular case.
Yep. I was just providing a few examples in response to your earlier question: "How do you get a "Ground Loop" with a microphone ?". I.e. it may not be common, but it's not impossible.
True. But I'd say the correct action there would be to sort that at the mic stand rather than compromise on shielding.
That's all very well if you have control and predictability WRT how the mics and stands will be set up and used. If you are dealing with performers etc, that goes out the window when (for instance) a guitarist decides to use the shaft of the mic stand up against (separately earthed) electric guitar strings to produce impromptu "slide guitar" effects (as Jeff Buckley, among others, used to do).

It's all speculation, but a grounding configuration that deals with anything that's thrown at has something going for it, even if you'd characterise it as a compromise...
 
Microphones are a special case, as they're hanging out there alone, not connected to earth via a U-ground utility plug. Between devices that are, care is needed to avoid the inevitable voltage drop causing a 60Hz current to flow in a shield that induces hum electro-magnetically in signal conductors. For these interconnects, shields are connected to female XLR pin 1 at the source end, but kept open at the destination end male. An exception is in high RF environments (radio transmitters) where at the destination the shield is connected through a capacitor that shorts the RF, but blocks LF hum. Finally, it’s up to the device designer to collect all pin 1’s to the common ground, usually one point in the power supply.

I believe pin 1 also acts as the 48v phantom return. FYI, anyway.
I recommend doing a search for the 'pin 1 problem' and read until your eyes hurt.
 
Yep. I was just providing a few examples in response to your earlier question: "How do you get a "Ground Loop" with a microphone ?". I.e. it may not be common, but it's not impossible.

That's all very well if you have control and predictability WRT how the mics and stands will be set up and used. If you are dealing with performers etc, that goes out the window when (for instance) a guitarist decides to use the shaft of the mic stand up against (separately earthed) electric guitar strings to produce impromptu "slide guitar" effects (as Jeff Buckley, among others, used to do).

True. But is it common practice to "Ground" mic stands etc ? Genuine question.
But as a general observation, there is a difference between the least risk option and the case where you control the whole thing and can optimise for that.
In shorthand a live "gig" Vs running your own Studio.

It's all speculation, but a grounding configuration that deals with anything that's thrown at has something going for it, even if you'd characterise it as a compromise...
 
Ultimately we come back to the point that what is currently considered "best practice" is half a century out of date.

In 2024 shell should be treated as "shield" and "pin 4" and considered "earth" due to electrical safety legislation and pin 1 should be treated as audio signal return. A permanent "safe ground lift" should be applied between audio ground and earth.

Equipment and cables arranged thusly still work with gear and cables based older practices, but can be guaranteed to be free from "pin 1 problems" if all devices in the system are updated to best current day practices.

Thor
 
Last edited:
In 2024 shell should be treated as "shield" and "pin 4" and considered "earth" due to electrical safety legislation and pin should be treated as audio signal return. A permanent "safe ground lift" should be applied between audio ground and earth.

Equipment and cables arranged thusly still work with gear and cables based older practices, but can be guaranteed to be free from "pin 1 problems" if all devices in the system are updated to best current day practices.
I like that.

Even though it would require the replacement of truckloads of 3-conductor cable (and would use 33.3% more solder/soldering in the fabrication of their replacements).

Maybe the biggest sticking point is that TT (and TRS) would have to be deprecated - or else they would render the revised ground scheme moot wherever they were used.

Maybe "TRRS" (or should that be "TRES" or "TRGS"?) could become a thing... :oops:
 
It's called "Pentacon" aka JEITA RC8141C. It's 4.4mm TRRRS.

View attachment 121176
Interesting. Thanks for that info.

I hadn't heard of the Pentaconn, and see that it's primarily directed at the balanced headphone market, which explains the fifth conductor. And the relative obscurity. FWIW, google only seems to have heard of it if you include the second "n".

It's a slightly strange hybrid: the dimensions are seemingly based on TT, but the profile (including diameter of the tip) seem borrowed from TRS.

Despite the redundant third ring, it might find adoption for balanced lines where the shield is kept separate from audio 'ground', but we'd still lack a variant to become heir to the ubiquitous TRS, since the Pentaconn format is on the footprint of TT.

TRES? You know the TRES?

Well, I know ZZ's Tres Hombres. Good album! ; )
 
I hadn't heard of the Pentaconn, and see that it's primarily directed at the balanced headphone market, which explains the fifth conductor. And the relative obscurity. FWIW, google only seems to have heard of it if you include the second "n".

It's a slightly strange hybrid: the dimensions are seemingly based on TT, but the profile (including diameter of the tip) seem borrowed from TRS.

Despite the redundant third ring, it might find adoption for balanced lines where the shield is kept separate from audio 'ground', but we'd still lack a variant to become heir to the ubiquitous TRS, since the Pentaconn format is on the footprint of TT.

It's closer to a fat 3.5mm jack than to 1/4". I have used it for balanced line connections in compact hifi equipment. It's kinda like a replacement for 5-Pin DIN Balanced.

Well, I know ZZ's Tres Hombres. Good album! ; )

I see. I was thinking T.R.E.S. from "Foucault's Pendulum" by Umberto Eco ( T.R.E.S. =Templi Resurgentes Equites Synarchici, Latin for "the Risen again Synarchic Knights of the Temple").

Thor
 
You can get noise issues with audio interfaces connected to laptops when the laptop has the power supply connected - goes away when laptop’s on battery. There seems to be some ground loop via the USB/Thunderbolt connection - it would appear that two separate DC supplies on two different pieces of gear, ground connected via the USB cable shield have ground differentials at the DC- rails which are each devices system ground, that causes high frequency noise ground currents with switch-mode power supplies. Anything connecting to the interface with a ground/body shield can make the problem worse.
Happens a lot to guys using laptops and audio interfaces at live gigs - also seems to happen sometimes with USB powered audio devices, USB data noise gets introduced into the audio when the laptop power is connected - a powered hub is often a solution.
You can get mouse and trackpad motion passing through the audio system as “zipper” noise.

In some mics the body/case grounding is done within the mic and is not connected directly to pin 1 at the plug, but via the internal circuit board - connecting the two at the plug may cause an internal very short ground loop - sensive to external noise through the body of the mic. Some mics are sensitive to where the body ground is terminated especially with having an internal preamp in condenser mics. The casework of the audio interface may also be prone to the same issues.
Re grounded mic stands. Some old mics do have metal swivel mounts which being hard connected to the mic stand also hard connected to the mic body thus grounding the stand - but only the boom arm as these are isolated from the rest of the stand by the plastic tightening adjuster clamps, even using a cast-base floor stand with no boom, the top adjustable height section is isolated from the bottom by the tightening clamp - but in general most mic shock mounts are electrically isolated so mic stands inherently are ungrounded.
 
You can get noise issues with audio interfaces connected to laptops when the laptop has the power supply connected - goes away when laptop’s on battery.

Either classic Earth Loop (if the Laptop PSU has a 3-wire mains connections and there is another earth somewhere in the system) where the solution is an earth loop breaker (e.g. HumX etc.)

Or "missing earth hum" where there is no earth anywhere and the leakage via the Power-supply causes hum, do overall capacitance to physical earth.

Re grounded mic stands. Some old mics do have metal swivel mounts which being hard connected to the mic stand also hard connected to the mic body thus grounding the stand - but only the boom arm as these are isolated from the rest of the stand by the plastic tightening adjuster clamps, even using a cast-base floor stand with no boom, the top adjustable height section is isolated from the bottom by the tightening clamp - but in general most mic shock mounts are electrically isolated so mic stands inherently are ungrounded.

Yes, on the other hand, vocal mic's in the singers hand are grounded via the body capacitance.

Thor
 

Latest posts

Back
Top