Yamaha PM2000 Help find this switch? (ALPS pushbutton) Schadow, Cannon etc

[JW]

So, the mute buttons on my Yamaha PM2000 console use an alps pushbutton switch from the 70's. After ordering about 10 different types of switches that look the same, I found one that appears to be an exact replica, made by "Well Buying"

Here is a link: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Well-Buying/A-C2DNN4/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtFyPk3yBMYYDIJCl87JpqhmwQjStVYCCY%3d

Notice the way the bracket attaches to the switch. When you take it off the switch falls apart. Anybody familiar with these, perhaps under a different brand? I would order those from Mouser, but they're out of stock, who knows when they'll be back. The bracket screw holes don't line up, so I'd have to carefully take the bracket off the new,  and replace with the old mounting bracket. I've already tried this with one of them and it seems to work okay as long as I can hold the switch together during the process.

Something to note is the bracketless (bare) switches don't work, like this one https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Well-Buying/A-S2DNN2/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtFyPk3yBMYYDIJCl87JpqhYh1Dt5eQSo0%3d They don't just slip into the old bracket like the ones that come with bracket supplied do. This seems to be true whether from Cannon, Alps, etc.

Does anybody know where else to get these in the US, preferably? Well Buying seems to sell exclusively through mouser.

 

[pvision]

Are these the same?

http://uk.farnell.com/c-k-components/f2uee/switch-dpdt-0-5a-125vac-solder/dp/2320013?CMP=i-ddd7-00001003

I have replaced dozens on Orban gear from the 70s & 80s. Just prize open the tabs on the bracket, with the bracket still attached to the board, desolder the pins & pull them out

Nick Froome

 

[JW]

Nope. Those are nice switches. They feel good, but I'm almost positive they're the same as the ITT/Cannon AND actually there is a model that seems to be exactly that under the  "Well Buying" brand as well. The problem is my existing skirt/bracket doesn't quite slip over the spot that it's supposed to.

The section that accommodates the bracket is like 2mm off or something. Very close, but it causes one to bend the bracket open more undermines the plungers ability to be centered and in the end the plastic button that attaches to the plunger is off in it's hole.

 

[Whoops]

How about the 1176 ratio switch assembly, could you adapt the individual switches for your needs?

http://www.hairballaudio.com/catalog/parts-store/switches/ratio-switch-bank-assembly

 

[JW]

Ooooh. Nice. Those look like the same thing. Will give it a shot.  I've built my 1176's with rotary switches so didn't even occur to me. Thanks!

 

[bruno2000]

I have several "SSL" type switches in brackets.  Will those work for you?
Best,
Bruno2000

 

[Matt C]

I've got a PM2000 and am also searching for the same switches.  Let us know what you find. 

I believe those Hairball switches are "Toneluck" brand.  The Classic API site says they are "100% compatible with the popular C&K F series switches", which I'm guessing means they will have the same problem with the bracket not quite fitting.

C&K makes similar brackets for their F series switches, so at one point I thought about just replacing both, but I wasn't able to find a source for the brackets, and I sort of doubt the mounting screw holes would line up how they need to.

 

[JW]

Hi Matt. Yeah tough find. I have an order into Hairball. Those look very similar don't they? Also, the big black switch that is in Hairball's meter assembly looks exactly like one of the E- switches I ordered from mouser during my search and that actually fit the PM2K bracket, but as you can see, it's too big to solder into the little switch board, and it's more expensive. We'll see how the smaller "toneluck" brand work. 

Bruno, let me wait and see if these work before I go down the bunny hole of SSL switch compatibility. A data sheet link would be lovely. I'll probably end up ordering like 50 of them if I can find an exact fit.

 

[Matt C]

I'll probably end up ordering like 50 of them if I can find an exact fit.

FWIW if you find a source that requires a large minimum order, I'd buy a bunch too.

I believe the same switches could be used several other places in the console - program assign, pan bypass, HPF, maybe something else too?  you'd have to clip off either the solder log or the pin, whichever you weren't using, but I think they'd work.

 

[JW]

FWIW, the trend that I've seen so far with the new switches is that if it comes with a bracket, it's likely the switch will slip into the PM2K bracket. Whether or not other proportions of the switch will make it usable, who knows.  Also, I've yet to see a new bracket that matches the  screw holes up with the old bracket, requiring as mentioned that the switch be pulled from the new bracket and inserted into the old.

If they come without a bracket, like several of the first switches I ordered, (whether it's ALPS, E switch, Cannon etc, ) although most appear to have a groove for slipping into some kind of bracket, that section of the switch has consistently been slightly too wide, which would require bending of the bracket, which is unacceptable, as it will make it off center and prone to catching the sides of the hole.

Matt, you might be right about them working for a bunch of the other functions too. Don't quote me or anything, but I do have a vague memory of disassembling one of the buss assign switch assemblies on a parts channel to see if those are the same fit as the mute/arm switches, and being disappointed that something didn't fit for some reason. But maybe I'm not remembering correctly. I sure don't have many problems with the other switches though. Just the mute/arm switches.

For anyone reading this thread that is interested, I have two of these consoles, and am going to be selling a  24 channel version pretty soon. Recapped, JLM eq mods on every channel. Upgraded IC opamps, program channel upgrades etc. It's going to be pretty nice. Just need to suss out a problem with a couple of the input strips. Might be more of a purple forum try to sell though as I'm sure folks around here would be more happy to buy a beater PM2K and fix it up themselves. But, thought I'd mention. Let me know if you're interested.

 

[Matt C]

Matt, you might be right about them working for a bunch of the other functions too. Don't quote me or anything, but I do have a vague memory of disassembling one of the buss assign switch assemblies on a parts channel to see if those are the same fit as the mute/arm switches, and being disappointed that something didn't fit for some reason. But maybe I'm not remembering correctly. I sure don't have many problems with the other switches though. Just the mute/arm switches.

For anyone reading this thread that is interested, I have two of these consoles, and am going to be selling a  24 channel version pretty soon. Recapped, JLM eq mods on every channel. Upgraded IC opamps, program channel upgrades etc. It's going to be pretty nice. Just need to suss out a problem with a couple of the input strips.

The pin spacing is the same for all the DPDT push buttons in question.  When compared side by side they seem to be the same physical size, I haven't taken any precise measurements but I'd bet they will work.  The ON/OFF switch just has, for some reason, unused solder lugs hanging off the back, where as the other switches have only pins or lugs, not both.  Strange that your ON/OFF switches are so flaky, they are the only ones in my console that behave properly.  The others work okay now but were badly in need of exercise when I first got the board.

Anyway, I'm also curious to hear about the work you did on your PM2000 because I'm in the midst of that right now.  I'll PM you.

 

[API]

The C&K switch is the exact same size as the Toneluck switches so they will most likely not work either if a C&K did not.
What is the spacing of the mounting holes for your bracket?
Mouser do sell both the switch and the bracket and they are not that expensive, spacing on the C&K single bracket is 18mm or 0,709".

 

[Matt C]

ahh, I just found the C&K brackets at mouser, I don't know why I had such trouble finding them before.  It looks like those might work, definitely worth a shot.

 

[JW]

So yeah, those toneluck switches from Hairball are too wide again. Forgot that 1176 switching is momentary anyway. Duh.

C&K bracket? Link?

 

[Matt C]

single bracket:
https://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=C01virtualkey61110000virtualkey611-C01

four space bracket for program assign switch bank:
https://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=C0415virtualkey61110000virtualkey611-C0415

It would be worth double checking the datasheet but I'm pretty sure those are the two that are most likely to work

 

[JW]

So, I would think this is the switch that would fit that bracket? https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/CK-Components/51281/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvxtGF7dlGNpowNqRnK0sWOqAXDOrsrRTw%3d I think it says "F" somewhere on the bracket mouser page. Datasheet for the above switch doesn't mention the model number for the bracket, but both say 18mm spacing for the screw holes which I'm hoping will be perfect because 20mm was slightly too wide.

 

[Matt C]

yep that's the switch.  they make a 4PDT version too, which gets used in a couple places in the PM2000

 

[Matt C]

I got a couple of those C&K F-series brackets, they seem to be almost perfect but there's one annoying difference - the original brackets have threaded mounting screw holes, whereas the C&K brackets don't (the holes are in the right place, but they are slightly smaller and not threaded.) So I think these brackets could be used but you'd need smaller screws with nuts on the back in order to mount the bracket in place.  Workable but annoying.

 

[PRR]

Or a small tap.

 

[Matt C]

Or a small tap.

I thought of that but I don't have much experience tapping holes like that.  It looked to me like the metal is not thick enough to support that - on the original bracket the metal sort of splays out the back of the hole so it's deep enough to be threaded. Whereas the metal on this new bracket is just thin and flat.