yikes alot of gain needed

[SCOOBY]

bought a nady rsm2 (yeah i know)
i got it on my dmp3 which is supposed to have 66db of gain available

i got the knob maxed and this mic is still very low on the record level

so the question is how do i tell if i have a damaged ribbon and does anyone know how to mod one of these with a the cinemag 9888

oh and the recorded sound can be decribed as dull and very bassy

wish i was on this board before the order i'd have gone shiny box version first.........dahhhwelll i'm here now
any help folks?

 

[SCOOBY]

honestly i get more sound from my at4040 with phantom off lol

 

[rodabod]

How old is the mic?

Have you dropped it? Subjected it to gusts of air?

Ribbons are harder to break than you might think.

Do you have a sample MP3?

 

[ToobieSnack]

the cinemag trafo change is super simple.
two connections to the ribbon clamps and two connections to the world (well theres a ground too)
ribbons are figure 8 and phasing is less critical.
so it's actully kinda hard to mess up.
just be sure not to put it in backwards (there will be a wiring digram with the new transformer)
also you might look at a sowter at prodigy pro's main website (home)
i am not sure which trafo outperforms the other but i think price is the main reason for some choosing the cinemag (since most/some of us a pretty poor here .. lol)
you might also look at edcor...
i have an edcor in my d-1c

as for the sound mic placement can be a concern due to proximity effect of ribbon mics.
the closer yo get the more bass you get..
i am using the radius 50 mic pre with the gain slammed all the way up
and they are a great deal at zzounds.com at 199 each (mic pre and optical compressor)and working fine with my RCA 74b and my own design the destroyer d-1c (not posted)
i do wish i had 70 db of gain though to push the compressor harder.

if you get a pre with lots of gain you should be able to back off your mic placement a bit which will give you better highs.

make sure you are actually getting 66 db of gain ( i dunno check the manual or a website or mebbe some one could offer some info here)
i am not familiar with your mic pre .. or mebbe i am but it's jst not registering now ..lol
anyway hope this helps
BTW welcome to the forum and cool screen name lol :wink:
later
ts

 

[rodabod]

[quote author="ToobieSnack"]my own design the destroyer d-1c (not posted)
[/quote]

Let us see! What is it?

I'm getting a massive amount of gain on my recent DIY pre. I can use my Reslo ribbons as ambient mics with hardly any noise.

A quiet pre with plenty of gain will make dealing with ribbons a lot easier.

I wouldn't bother changing the trafo until you are sure you would appreciate the benefits.

 

[ToobieSnack]

r bod thanks for your interest.
i beleive i have stumbled across a very cool and unique design.
i am currently researching patents to see if my new design will infringe upon other designs
a good portion of the design is the housing so... for this reason i can't post pics just yet.
and also like i have learned from that other not so "wise" company(pun intended) ornamental design can be VERY important.
i don't watn to end up with a blue mood .. lol
i do plan on posting some mp3 clips very soon.
after designing it and researching it i found that it is very similar to the royer stuff.. this was not intentional but ... my / royers research must have led to the same conclusions. ther are differenc es but the pricipal is similar (but of course there both ribbon mics .. lol)
the ribbon mic is like the automobile ... it has been around forever but it has it's limitations ... like the world land speed records.. a car can only go so fast before it becomes a plane lol....

anyway ribbon mic design is similar .. there are very few undiscovered advancements.

i am dying to post but i must remain patient and vigilant.
look for the clips
i'll post some soon i promise
BTW which DIY mic pre did you build rbod?
later
ts

 

[rodabod]

[quote author="ToobieSnack"]
and also like i have learned from that other not so "wise" company(pun intended) ornamental design can be VERY important.
i don't watn to end up with a blue mood .. lol

BTW which DIY mic pre did you build rbod?
[/quote]

Make sure you don't violet any laws. Sorry.

I actually put together a design which Samuel Groner posted for me. It is a Beyer 1:7 TR/BV trafo connected to a couple of OPA604 opamps. The gain is cleverly controlled on both opamps by one linear pot which in combimation provides exponential gain.

I didn't expect it to be astounding, but I am actually very very impressed. It has much more gain than I expected - too much for some ribbons! The noise is as quiet as a mouse. I'm going to get some better caps for it too and see how this affects the sound.

I will look forward to seeing your creation. I can already imagine that it will not look very conventional going by your standards! I can still remember the last TS deco ribbon mic.

 

[alk509]

[quote author="ToobieSnack"]and also like i have learned from that other not so "wise" company(pun intended) ornamental design can be VERY important.[/quote]

[quote author="robadob"]Make sure you don't violet any laws.[/quote]

LOL! :green:

Peace,
Al.

 

[SCOOBY]

[quote author="rodabod"]How old is the mic?

Have you dropped it? Subjected it to gusts of air?

Ribbons are harder to break than you might think.

Do you have a sample MP3?[/quote]
lol no its new, but did get ups'd to my house and being an employee i know what packages go through or across or over etc lol
its not unreasonable to assume it might have been damaged but for now seeing as it works i'll concentrate on transformers luhndahl is a good choice too i here.
the most i can drop for transformer at this point is around 160 sooo comments and suggestions are welcome.

Where's marik when i need him lol

 

[rodabod]

Your mic should be ok then.

You can afford pretty much any of the main transformer choices.

Read the metas! Search for "ribbon transformer", etc!

It would benefit more from a better preamp by the sounds of things.

 

[ToobieSnack]

hi again,,
lundahl is alos a VERY good choice.
i spoke wiht clarence kane and he said he uses the lundahl's
i am also eager to get a high dollar trafo to see the effects.
i will probably go for the Sowter with the mu-metal inclosure.
you can look here on the prodigy pro site and find those.
i found the numbers for the trafo's ath the sowter website (Can't quote them to you now)
search +ribbon +mic*

and that will give you about 4 soter choices to choose from.
i havn'e even considered the lundahl yet so maybe someone else can advise you on those.

BTW al and others ... glad you enjoyerd my lil pun :grin:

later
ts

 

[Family Hoof]

[quote author="SCOOBY"] the most i can drop for transformer at this point is around 160 sooo comments and suggestions are welcome.[/quote]
My advice... don't put another $160 into a cheap mic. Put the money towards building or buying a real preamp to replace that piece of crap DMP3. Ribbons can be very fussy with regards to input impedance and usually require a ton of clean, quiet gain. The difference from any transformer upgrade is likely to be marginal or none until you get this preamp situation sorted out.

 

[rodabod]

[quote author="Family Hoof"][quote author="SCOOBY"] the most i can drop for transformer at this point is around 160 sooo comments and suggestions are welcome.[/quote]
My advice... don't put another $160 into a cheap mic. Put the money towards building or buying a real preamp to replace that piece of crap DMP3. Ribbons can be very fussy with regards to input impedance and usually require a ton of clean, quiet gain. The difference from any transformer upgrade is likely to be marginal or none until you get this preamp situation sorted out.[/quote]

Very true.

 

[SCOOBY]

well the the reason i haven't mentioned a new pre is i'm debating between the jlm pre and or a stereo green pre. i'm just sorting the info and really i'm leaning toward the green becuase of cost and its simplicity.

 

[Marik]

Scooby,

Indeed most of the ribbon microphones have quite low output and often you'll need to crank your pre all the way up, which may seem quite unusual to a "condencer person". So the high clean gain pre is essential. Also, a proper mic loading becomes of big importance and besides sound degradation, low input impedance of the pre, can result in some signal loss. Look for one with a variable input impedance, if you are planning to use ribbons.

Although the Cinemag or Lundahl are much better tranformers than the stock one, they won't change much in the output. Cinemag, being a 1:28 ratio (IIRC) may actually have even a lower one.

I believe the problem with Nady's low output is in the ribbon itself and in its inefficient magnet structure. To save some $$$ they put pretty small magnets and get magnetic flux of about 3500 Gauss. With bigger magnets they could easily raise this figure to 4500-5000 Gauss, with the same frame/baffle size, for a few db's output increase.

The ribbon element looks to me like made not out of aluminum, but duralum, which is not as compliant. The advertised thickness of 2um seems a little bit optimistic, which together with very weird corrugation and sloppy ribbon installation do not contribute to the sound beauty.

The grill construction is not thoughtful either, and creates a lot of standing waves and reflections, and partially responsible for the dull sound.

Ribbon mics feel much happier with further distance micing. Use them at least 2-3 feet away from the source, otherwise proximity will be huge and you'll get that very bassy sound.

 

[SCOOBY]

now thats a mouthfull
where do you suggest i start with it then

 

[Rossi]

Marik is correct, the construction isn't optimal. Still, I like the sound a lot. I have two of the Thomann ribbons which are said to be identical with the Nady one. Well, at least the grill is a little different; the transformer may be different, too.

Variable impedance doesn't do much. At least not for this budget ribbon. I'm currently conducting experiments. From what I can tell, the biggest effect of lower impedance is signal loss. Sound differences are very small. From my experiences so far, I can say that normal or higher than usual impedances produce the best results, as there is less signal loss.

When you're looking for a new preamp, take a look at the EIN figure. When you crank up a preamp as much as you have to when working with a ribbon, equivalent input noise is a crucial figure. Unfortunately different manufacurers use different methods of measuring EIN. But as a rule of thumb, the lower the figure, the better the noise performance at high gain. -120 dB reads impressive, but is pretty bad, actually. Good figures are significantly lower, around -128 dB. Or even lower, if they measured with the input shorted (instead of resistor terminated).

Marik is correct: some distance is required, and you need a quiet environment for that or room noise will be audible. If that's not possible for you, go for a preamp with a variable low cut to compensate the proximity effect. Variable low cut is a really useful feature when working with ribbons, much more useful than variable inpedance, imho.

 

[ToobieSnack]

ya great tip rossi.
i use my daw to shelf out the unwanted lows...
i have even been able to remove thunder from the back ground using some intuitive shelving of the lows.
the daw allow control of the placement and withdth of the Q for precise reduction fo unwanted frequencies.

so to summarize:

careful mic placement
a quite room
shelve out lows
get a quiet... powerful preamp
and be ready to do some mods for improved performance after that.

also fum will sell yo a ribbon mic motor almost or maybe identical to yours for experimenting .. if he has any more left .. check the blk mkt
this would be the safest way to experiment with mods ..
and afterwards you'd have 2 MICS! :grin:
anyway hope this helps
later
ts

 

[rodabod]

[quote author="ToobieSnack"]
also fum will sell yo a ribbon mic motor almost or maybe identical to yours for experimenting .. if he has any more left ..[/quote]

None left sadly.

TS, did you buy a motor?

I've still got mine. I bought a "sold as seen" Lustraphone ribbon mic which I planned to butcher - "unfortunately" the bloody thing works perfectly already! Oh well.

 

[ToobieSnack]

planned to butcher - "unfortunately" the bloody thing works perfectly already! Oh well

that's funny
AND if it is the ribbon mic i am thinking about...

DO NOT BUTCHER THAT MIC!!!!!

does it look like an electric shaver?
post a pic.

i it is the one i am thinking of i have on on the way from the UK supposedly if it is not lost in the mail .. :sad:

i had a guy ready to trade me an RCA 44a for one .. :shock:
a broadcast pr who said it was the BEST ribbon mic he had ever used.

anyway this is a pretty fun thread ya?
later
ts[/quote]