Recording Accessoiries

[Emmathom]

Hi @k brown this solution is really interesting and can actually be built with a pair of omnidirectional lavaliers (when you can't spend 2800€ for Earthworks).

Let It Bleed. A greater amount of omni bleed usually sounds better than a lesser amount of cardioid bleed (a major exception to this is the insanely flat off-axis response of the EV RE15). With small omnis inside the piano, positioned as shown in the PM40 lit, the piano lid can be in pretty much any position with very good results.

I think we need to separate the issues. When you record a band with electric instruments (synthesizer, electric guitar, electric bass, etc.) you have no choice but to install as many microphones as necessary, but that's another subject.

For 100% acoustic orchestra and as @Barry Hufker said, I would rather go with an omni ambiance couple, well placed and possibly reinforced by 1 or 2 mics (max) on low level instruments or to accentuate their definition. This gives a faithful stereo image of the orchestra, both in terms of placement and levels. Now, how to proceed with my setup?

I don't intend to spend money now and I lack of omni's. The only ones I've got are t.bone SC1100 modified circuit + Ari K47flat so LDC. The rest of my gear is composed by a Superlux S502 SDC ORTF, a 6AK5 cardio LDC pair and a WA84 SDC cardio pair and a SM81 SDC cardio... and no budget for a DPA (for ex.) omni pair at this time... I could maybe get a Line Audio omni pair which is affordable and very appreciated. Or a "good" lavallier omni pair...

About the gobo, I think everybody's comments here are relevant : this is not a good idea and it will not produce what I was hoping for... not efficient enough to avoid leaking from other sources / risks of direct sound disturbance

 

[k brown]

Listening again to the group recording in the original poat, what did you not like about the balance?

It does seem like a group that be recorded perfectly well with a simple omni stereo pair.

A pair of Line Audio Omni1s is an investment you will never regret.

 

[Emmathom]

Listening again to the group recording in the original poat, what did you not like about the balance?

It does seem like a group that be recorded perfectly well with a simple omni stereo pair.

A pair of Line Audio Omni1s is an investment you will never regret.

You're right : the mixed sound (not yet really "mixed") is quit satisfying. I added a little touch of reverb on the whole mix to recreate the original acoustic and to "glue" a bit these cardio's. The phase is respected between all mics (moves a little toward "acceptable" on certain parts but never in the out-of-phase range).

Yes the Line Audio omni are winking at me for a while...

 

[Emmathom]

Hi @Barry Hufker may I ask you how you set your omni couple as a "rule to begin with and before adjustments" ?

Distance between mics and between mics and front scene ? Is there a calculation depending of the width of the orchestra ? of the volume of the room ? Some say to not space too much the mics and stay as our ears distance (so ~17cm) and not too far form the musicians (1m-2m) to avoid catching too much room. I knwo this has to be adjust on a case-by-case basis, but maybe there are things to really avoid...

Thank you

 

[zamproject]

Stereo pair are well studied and documented since decades

17 cm usually refer to ORTF setup, with two cardo @ 110°
for omni we call this AB, distance may vary...
XY is coincident cardio @90°
Blumlein is coincident fig8 @90°
MS is concident Omni+8 @90° (which request matrixing)

 

[Emmathom]

Stereo pair are well studied and documented since decades

17 cm usually refer to ORTF setup, with two cardo @ 110°
for omni we call this AB, distance may vary...
XY is coincident cardio @90°
Blumlein is coincident fig8 @90°
MS is concident Omni+8 @90° (which request matrixing)

Yes I know thank you. I was asking for omni pair where there is no real fixed configuration as for ORTF, XY, M/S etc...

More a "not-to-do list" for AB omni (you can also do AB with cardio's) than a magic solution (which does not exist).

I've read that the mics must be spaced one in the middle of the half left scene and one in the middle of the half right scene (hope it's clear). So if the orchectra occupies a total width of 6m (for example) the left mic is at 1,5m from center and the right mic at 1,5m from center. Now how far from the musicians ? Is there some calculation based on the width occupied by the band ? A kind of rule considering phase issue...

This to have a "base" to begin with and adjust on a case-by-case basis.

I must point out that the majority of my classical music recordings are done "live" mostly in churches or theaters and that I only have rehearsals (for 1 hour or so / 2-3 hours before the concert) to set everything up (choice and positions of microphones, levels, recording and listening during the short breaks to evaluate my choices). So I don't have much time to do some tests and must be (more than) efficient.

 

[Barry Hufker]

@Emmathom,
Regarding Spaced Omnis: OK this is all going to sound lame, but "it depends." Sometimes my spaced omnis are about 12" (.3m) apart and other times they are a couple of feet. It all depends upon how it sounds. I do visualize the group and then mentally divide them into half or thirds, trying to place the mics so that each "section" of that imaginary division is covered. When using spaced omnis, mono compatibility suffers (how good the recording is in mono) but I don't mind that for the most part as long as the stereo is largely in phase and not "random phase" (on an oscilloscope).

My mic. placement mostly comes from studying microphone technique (books, conversation with other engineers, videos), a lot of listening and years of experience. If the omnis will be too widely separated, then it is time to place the omnis closer together or use a third mic to "nail down" the center of the image so the sonic image doesn't "ping pong" between left and right channels. I don't want a "hole in the middle" of the image. I'm always looking (and listening) for an even spread across the stereo image. Other times, there is a co-incident pair of mics in the center with omni "wings" on either side of it.

Forgive me for this statement as it sounds critical and it's not: Please be careful how you use the term "orchestra." It has a specific meaning and does not pertain to any other kind of ensemble. So a quintet is not an orchestra. It is a "quintet", "group" or "ensemble."

I too do live concert recording (mainly) and have done for the better part of my 53 years recording classical, jazz and folk music. I enjoy this kind of recording the most!

If you haven't seen this, it is great fun to explore and a wonderful tool for understanding how microphone techniques affect the stereo image.
https://sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-Faulkner-E.htm

The page hasn't aged well as browsers have matured. By that I mean on my computer, the image is a bit disproportionate, but it still is a great help. Oddly, the page looks correct on my iPad.

I hope any of this information is helpful.

 

[Emmathom]

@Emmathom,
Regarding Spaced Omnis: OK this is all going to sound lame, but "it depends." Sometimes my spaced omnis are about 12" (.3m) apart and other times they are a couple of feet. It all depends upon how it sounds. I do visualize the group and then mentally divide them into half or thirds, trying to place the mics so that each "section" of that imaginary division is covered. When using spaced omnis, mono compatibility suffers (how good the recording is in mono) but I don't mind that for the most part as long as the stereo is largely in phase and not "random phase" (on an oscilloscope).

My mic. placement mostly comes from studying microphone technique (books, conversation with other engineers, videos), a lot of listening and years of experience. If the omnis will be too widely separated, then it is time to place the omnis closer together or use a third mic to "nail down" the center of the image so the sonic image doesn't "ping pong" between left and right channels. I don't want a "hole in the middle" of the image. I'm always looking (and listening) for an even spread across the stereo image. Other times, there is a co-incident pair of mics in the center with omni "wings" on either side of it.

Forgive me for this statement as it sounds critical and it's not: Please be careful how you use the term "orchestra." It has a specific meaning and does not pertain to any other kind of ensemble. So a quintet is not an orchestra. It is a "quintet", "group" or "ensemble."

I too do live concert recording (mainly) and have done for the better part of my 53 years recording classical, jazz and folk music. I enjoy this kind of recording the most!

If you haven't seen this, it is great fun to explore and a wonderful tool for understanding how microphone techniques affect the stereo image.
https://sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-Faulkner-E.htm

The page hasn't aged well as browsers have matured. By that I mean on my computer, the image is a bit disproportionate, but it still is a great help. Oddly, the page looks correct on my iPad.

I hope any of this information is helpful.

Thanx a lot @Barry Hufker and much respect for your career ! I'll watch the link thank you. I knew there won't be a typical (even begining of) solution...

 

[k brown]

Yes I know thank you. I was asking for omni pair where there is no real fixed configuration as for ORTF, XY, M/S etc...

More a "not-to-do list" for AB omni (you can also do AB with cardio's) than a magic solution (which does not exist).

I've read that the mics must be spaced one in the middle of the half left scene and one in the middle of the half right scene (hope it's clear). So if the orchectra occupies a total width of 6m (for example) the left mic is at 1,5m from center and the right mic at 1,5m from center. Now how far from the musicians ? Is there some calculation based on the width occupied by the band ? A kind of rule considering phase issue...

This to have a "base" to begin with and adjust on a case-by-case basis.

I must point out that the majority of my classical music recordings are done "live" mostly in churches or theaters and that I only have rehearsals (for 1 hour or so / 2-3 hours before the concert) to set everything up (choice and positions of microphones, levels, recording and listening during the short breaks to evaluate my choices). So I don't have much time to do some tests and must be (more than) efficient.

27" AB is a config used extensively by top Classical engineer Tony Faulkner. It's pretty much the max spacing that doesn't result in a distracting hole in the middle. As you get wider, it becomes more apparent.

Spacings of around 3' can sound even more spacious and 'enveloping', but require that L and R be panned-in a bit (by ear) to fill in the center. Much wider than that and the degree of panning-in required becomes enough to start causing audible comb filter effect.

An example of a well-proven small AB for closer mic'ing of an individual instrument is a parallel pair of omnis (or cards, if needed) about 12" apart at the tail of a grand piano; developed by the engineers at Decca.

Here's a great online stereo visualization tool:
https://sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-AB60-E.htm

 

[k brown]

Anyone doing Classical recording to any extent owes it to themselves to have this book:
https://www.amazon.com/Classical-Recording-Practical-Tradition-Engineering/dp/0367312808/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3L8NNJ7V4I62X&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.qex9tSAckN-vkA8-R77vyQ.SzfD1fZ08NfJyi4d2YKblCH_w0nNUD4ediDTVHWpYX0&dib_tag=se&keywords=classical+recording+dunkerley&qid=1729706975&sprefix=classical+recording+dunkerley,aps,230&sr=8-1

 

[k brown]

At the risk of derailing this thread further, I'll just add my two most-used main stereo arrays that are not in the "Classical Recording" book, simply because there were not developed at Decca.

1. A 'double AB' array developed by Onno Scholtze while at Philips during their heyday. It's simply two omni AB pairs, a small one at only 8-10", and a second one on the same long bar, at 10 feet apart. Both pairs are aimed 90 degrees apart and aimed straight ahead, not down towards the ensemble. Both pairs panned hard L/R, and mixed at the same level. Sounds at least as good as the Decca Tree, and is much simpler to rig and mix. Also doesn't rely on the use of APE-fitted mics, as the Decca Tree does to really 'gel' properly. Scholtze invariably used it with DPA 4006s. (In the photo below, ignore the mic dangling down near the center of the bar; it's not part if it).

2. A dual pair array developed by the aforementioned independent engineer, Tony Faulkner. It combines his 27" omni pair with a pair of subcardioids at 18.5" on the same bar; both pairs aimed 90 degrees out. Other directional patterns can be used in place of the subcardioids, with their spacing adjusted accordingly (for example ~15" for regular cards). These pairs are mixed with one pair 3-6dB higher than the other (to minimize combing) depending on whichever works best in the present circumstance. This array has a rather magical effect of combining the 'reach' of the directional pair with the 'bloom' and richness of the omni pair, without one compromising the effect of the other. Faulkner has said that it often results in his not needing spot mics for the woodwinds.

 

[Emmathom]

Waiting to read your links, may I ask you guys what you think about 2 omni mics sets in my money budget : the Line Audio Omni pair (~290€) vs the Pluggy EM272Z1 matched stereo pair (~170€) sold by Micbooster.

I know most of the Line Audio Omni owners do love it (and I guess the CM4 cardio is a great product too).
Yet these tiny mics (Pluggy) are also discreet and light...

If you haven't seen this, it is great fun to explore and a wonderful tool for understanding how microphone techniques affect the stereo image.
https://sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-Faulkner-E.htm

The page hasn't aged well as browsers have matured. By that I mean on my computer, the image is a bit disproportionate, but it still is a great help. Oddly, the page looks correct on my iPad.

I hope any of this information is helpful.

Very interesting tool ! Playing with it I found that a 23" AB covers 125° with 1,295ms delay between the 2 mics. This arrangement increase stereo panning and (maybe ?) would need a center mic (SDC cardio ?) to be dosed at mixing...
Anyway thank you for the link

 

[Emmathom]

1. A 'double AB' array developed by Onno Scholtze while at Philips during their heyday. It's simply two omni AB pairs, a small one at only 8-10", and a second one on the same long bar, at 10 feet apart. Both pairs are aimed 90 degrees apart and aimed straight ahead, not down towards the ensemble. Both pairs panned hard L/R, and mixed at the same level. Sounds at least as good as the Decca Tree, and is much simpler to rig and mix. Also doesn't rely on the use of APE-fitted mics, as the Decca Tree does to really 'gel' properly. Scholtze invariably used it with DPA 4006s. (In the photo below, ignore the mic dangling down near the center of the bar; it's not part if it).

So 90° apart for all 4 mics. 1 pair at 8-10" and the second one same bar, same angle, but 10 feet from each other... (worth a try but I ain't got DPA4006 unfortunately)

2. A dual pair array developed by the aforementioned independent engineer, Tony Faulkner. It combines his 27" omni pair with a pair of subcardioids at 18.5" on the same bar; both pairs aimed 90 degrees out. Other directional patterns can be used in place of the subcardioids, with their spacing adjusted accordingly (for example ~15" for regular cards). These pairs are mixed with one pair 3-6dB higher than the other (to minimize combing) depending on whichever works best in the present circumstance. This array has a rather magical effect of combining the 'reach' of the directional pair with the 'bloom' and richness of the omni pair, without one compromising the effect of the other. Faulkner has said that it often results in his not needing spot mics for the woodwinds.

 

[k brown]

Waiting to read your links, may I ask you guys what you think about 2 omni mics sets in my money budget : the Line Audio Omni pair (~290€) vs the Pluggy EM272Z1 matched stereo pair (~170€) sold by Micbooster.

I know most of the Line Audio Omni owners do love it (and I guess the CM4 cardio is a great product too).
Yet these tiny mics (Pluggy) are also discreet and light...


Very interesting tool ! Playing with it I found that a 23" AB covers 125° with 1,295ms delay between the 2 mics. This arrangement increase stereo panning and (maybe ?) would need a center mic (SDC cardio ?) to be dosed at mixing...
Anyway thank you for the link

Pluggys are junk compared to Line Audio; false economy. The Pluggys are bog standard Primos, not extensively modified as the Line Audios are.

 

[Emmathom]

Pluggys are junk compared to Line Audio; false economy. The Pluggys are bog standard Primos, not extensively modified as the Line Audios are.

Thanx for the information... Will stay on Line Audio. You guys here have already modified Line Audio omnis ???

 

[k brown]

So 90° apart for all 4 mics. 1 pair at 8-10" and the second one same bar, same angle, but 10 feet from each other... (worth a try but I ain't got DPA4006 unfortunately)

You described the double AB correctly. Doesn't require DPAs (I don't have any either); I was just pointing out that Scholtze didn't develop the array with APE mics in mind, though he did use them on a couple of occasions. It does work best if all four mics are same, but I've used it quite successfully with different pairs, as long as both are SDC omnis of similar response.

 

[k brown]

Thanx for the information... Will stay on Line Audio. You guys here have already modified Line Audio omnis ???

I've not heard of anyone doing mods to LA mics; really nothing to improve on. What I meant was that Line Audio extensively modifies the Primo capsules for much flatter response, and extensively culls them, which I doubt is being done with the 'Clippy's and 'Pluggy's.

 

[Emmathom]

I made a drawing of Onno Scholtze configuration : is that correct ? (the length proportions don't reflect reality...)
10 inches ~25cm
10 feet = ~3 meters

 

[k brown]

I made a drawing of Onno Scholtze configuration : is that correct ? (the length proportions don't reflect reality...)
10 inches ~25cm
10 feet = ~3 meters

That's it.

 

[jeremynothman]

For a lot of perspectives on classical recording I really recommend the Facebook group https://m.facebook.com/groups/2165880873644305/“Classical Music Location Recording” . There are a lot of people there who are experts in the field, including veterans like Bob Katz! OCCO (as described as one of Tony Faulkner’s techniques) has become a sort of standard in the industry for being able to set up quickly.