clintrubber
Well-known member
Ahh, veel duidelijker nu. Rare gasten daar, grappenmakers :wink:
Behringer MDX2000 internal pics ?
- Thread starter Ptownkid
- Start date
Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
Henk, as I said: I tried, but it's impossible take out the thing without breaking it. It is glued to the socket. I can take close up picture of the upper side of the subcircuit board, but not of the component side. I had to use a small mirror to see what's on the board.
henk
Well-known member
Yes at last the pictures.
Picture 1 :this is the pcb of the mdx2000
Picture 2 :here you see the BE2000 , it looks big but is only connected whit a few pins
Picture 3 : instead of the BE2000 you see the SSM2120
Picture 4 ; the bottem side of the pcb , there you see that it is only used by a few pins and the rest is put to ground.(in the middle of the picture you can see the 22pins ic)
Picture 5 : the trafo fits just in it , you have to look very carefully before you will do the same. when you get rid of the old trafo then you have to use a large hammer to get it flat , then the chassis has to be straiten again , after that you can try to fit the trafo as it is on this picture.
Make a model of it so you can drill the 4 holes (3.2mm).
Picture 6 : when it is ready you still have to try if it works , normaly everything still works , then put some plastic above the trafo (so nobody gets a shock!!!!!) and you can close the chassis again.
Now is the time to hear the difference betwene a 15V and a 18V mdx2000 , if you dont hear it you must be deaf.
Have a lot of fun whit the unit , and the work to do it.
Picture 1 :this is the pcb of the mdx2000
Picture 2 :here you see the BE2000 , it looks big but is only connected whit a few pins
Picture 3 : instead of the BE2000 you see the SSM2120
Picture 4 ; the bottem side of the pcb , there you see that it is only used by a few pins and the rest is put to ground.(in the middle of the picture you can see the 22pins ic)
Picture 5 : the trafo fits just in it , you have to look very carefully before you will do the same. when you get rid of the old trafo then you have to use a large hammer to get it flat , then the chassis has to be straiten again , after that you can try to fit the trafo as it is on this picture.
Make a model of it so you can drill the 4 holes (3.2mm).
Picture 6 : when it is ready you still have to try if it works , normaly everything still works , then put some plastic above the trafo (so nobody gets a shock!!!!!) and you can close the chassis again.
Now is the time to hear the difference betwene a 15V and a 18V mdx2000 , if you dont hear it you must be deaf.
Have a lot of fun whit the unit , and the work to do it.
henk
Well-known member
Hey Rossi I still would like to get the picture of that small pcb , perhaps you can put it here aswell then everybody can try to do something , we even could make a schematic out of it?
We do know which pins it use and which not.
You allready told us what ic's and we do have to know where they are on that small pcb , we just have to make this ready.
We do know which pins it use and which not.
You allready told us what ic's and we do have to know where they are on that small pcb , we just have to make this ready.
clintrubber
Well-known member
Thanks Henk for all the info ! (& Roddy for hosting pics). I've collected all info, hope to point a soldering-iron to it sometime this winter.
Bye,
Peter
Bye,
Peter
smallbutfine
Well-known member
OK, i got an MDX2100 Rev.D for less than cheap, read this thread and want to post the chips on it first...because this unit looks brand new, date code "1 06" : VCA's are 1252 (Behringer scrubbed away the manufacturer! So THAT or UPC). OpAmps are JRC4580D and BE037 ... well and a couple of BA14741 and BA10324 out of the signal chain...
My question is, how much current your modded unit really draws, henk.
I have a 2x21V 10.5VA dead cheap east german psu transformer right here (and i mean 'dead cheap', under 2 Euros, Pollin) that *might* fit without mod...but looking into MDX2100 manual, obviously it is not stronger than the built in transformer that might be rated to somewhat like 9VA (wattage). The fuse is 315mA slow.
XFMR: 99-1339502FM (rep. EI - 48, YD-5738, ED13345)
The measuring points in my PCB, TT4/TT5 and TT10/TT11 are labeled +/-15 resp. +/-21V. I just guess the built-in transformer should be luckily OK regulated down to 18V or am i that wrong?
Kind regards
Martin
My question is, how much current your modded unit really draws, henk.
I have a 2x21V 10.5VA dead cheap east german psu transformer right here (and i mean 'dead cheap', under 2 Euros, Pollin) that *might* fit without mod...but looking into MDX2100 manual, obviously it is not stronger than the built in transformer that might be rated to somewhat like 9VA (wattage). The fuse is 315mA slow.
XFMR: 99-1339502FM (rep. EI - 48, YD-5738, ED13345)
The measuring points in my PCB, TT4/TT5 and TT10/TT11 are labeled +/-15 resp. +/-21V. I just guess the built-in transformer should be luckily OK regulated down to 18V or am i that wrong?
Kind regards
Martin
henk
Well-known member
We did not got the current counts , because the old frafo's were always with some temp , we just put in enough what could fit.
You can try it , but we used 24VA flachtrafo to have a little more power.
The temp of the trafo then stays low , i dont know if that one will stay low.
You have to try that out.
The 15V is after the regulator , the 21V is in front of the regulator.
But first get out those +/- 15V regulators for the 18V one's.
Then take out the opamps that are in the same row as here said in the mdx2000 , the only differents is the Be2000 for that Ca3046.
With luck and some work it wil work great!!
You can try it , but we used 24VA flachtrafo to have a little more power.
The temp of the trafo then stays low , i dont know if that one will stay low.
You have to try that out.
The 15V is after the regulator , the 21V is in front of the regulator.
But first get out those +/- 15V regulators for the 18V one's.
Then take out the opamps that are in the same row as here said in the mdx2000 , the only differents is the Be2000 for that Ca3046.
With luck and some work it wil work great!!
smallbutfine
Well-known member
Thanks henk, i surely would try your mod before i put this unit in the rack.
I was just curious if you have measured the current the whole circuit draws after your mod. I will try it anyway, because i made very, very good experiences from my Allessiss 3630 mod that made me listening with my mouth and ears wide open, quite stunning.
The process of your mod is very clearly described, so no problems to be expected. I will check out the heat of the transformer. I also plan to upgrade the two big PSU 'lytics to Nichicon PW 2200uF while changing the opamps and regulators. Sounds really worth the effort.
I will also change the 100nF ceramics because i just measured some of them out of my *cyperbmix* (that will probably make a cool passive summing station in future)...uuh bad...
There's not much money involved and i don't doubt that your mod sounds very good as the weakest parts of the signal chain and psu are heavily upgraded.
And the overall concept of the mdx's doesn't look bad to me at all.
Maybe the compressors from B'ringer were the best product line of them all in the past (thinking of the very useful combinator, which surely is a classic, and the old b'ringer red series studio compressor that wasn't bad for his time.)
I was just curious if you have measured the current the whole circuit draws after your mod. I will try it anyway, because i made very, very good experiences from my Allessiss 3630 mod that made me listening with my mouth and ears wide open, quite stunning.
The process of your mod is very clearly described, so no problems to be expected. I will check out the heat of the transformer. I also plan to upgrade the two big PSU 'lytics to Nichicon PW 2200uF while changing the opamps and regulators. Sounds really worth the effort.
I will also change the 100nF ceramics because i just measured some of them out of my *cyperbmix* (that will probably make a cool passive summing station in future)...uuh bad...
There's not much money involved and i don't doubt that your mod sounds very good as the weakest parts of the signal chain and psu are heavily upgraded.
And the overall concept of the mdx's doesn't look bad to me at all.
Maybe the compressors from B'ringer were the best product line of them all in the past (thinking of the very useful combinator, which surely is a classic, and the old b'ringer red series studio compressor that wasn't bad for his time.)
henk
Well-known member
The current is different to that of the mdx2000 , because there are only 2x opa2604 and 1x opa4134 in it and on the mdx2100 there are 2x opa4134 and i believe 1 xopa2604 , so current is different.
But also the powersupply on +/- 18V is different in current than the +/- 15V powersupply!!!
So have a good look on the temp of that trafo , special when it is boxed!
Have fun with it , it only takes a few hours of time for it and the funfactor is great!
But also the powersupply on +/- 18V is different in current than the +/- 15V powersupply!!!
So have a good look on the temp of that trafo , special when it is boxed!
Have fun with it , it only takes a few hours of time for it and the funfactor is great!
smallbutfine
Well-known member
Thank you henk...
no. my trafo isn't boxed, should be no problem...
Am i actually the only one who doesn't dislike but really *hates* double sided B*ringer pcb for obvious reasons???
(Not enough to fight with the behringer rack unit case disassembling...it comes worse afterwards...)
I managed to burn my fingers twice and can't go on tonight because it would be too loud to cut this bloody cheap opamps right from the board with my dremel :twisted: ...
...not to mention i lost a solderpad (that wasnt even connected... :evil: )
I wonder if anyone else does, what i do, if i loose my patience (drilling the holes out instead of desoldering...did this sometimes in the past without any problems...)
the 4580D's are out...oops, Uli, BE027 should have been in there, at least the letters on the pcb makes me believing this (according to Dipl.-Ing. Uli: "unique and vastly improved operational amplifiers"...)
OK, cynic hate mode off...
Yes i want the full mod.
I wonder, henk, if the BA14741 and BA10234 wouldn't get too hot with 18V, if i only change the opamps in the vca line...?
Another task would be recapping the bad electrolytes. These are, like mostly in Uli b's gear, the cheap jamicon and similar caps (brands usually on the blacklist of known-to fail-and-very-bad computer mainboard caps)...
If the unit sounds as good as you say, it would even be a good idea to change 22pF's to silver mica and for shure to replace all 100n's with film.
I just have to figure out tomorrow how to substitute 7818/7918 with 317/337...all i have here at the moment and surely a bit quieter...
Kind regards
no. my trafo isn't boxed, should be no problem...
Am i actually the only one who doesn't dislike but really *hates* double sided B*ringer pcb for obvious reasons???
(Not enough to fight with the behringer rack unit case disassembling...it comes worse afterwards...)
I managed to burn my fingers twice and can't go on tonight because it would be too loud to cut this bloody cheap opamps right from the board with my dremel :twisted: ...
...not to mention i lost a solderpad (that wasnt even connected... :evil: )
I wonder if anyone else does, what i do, if i loose my patience (drilling the holes out instead of desoldering...did this sometimes in the past without any problems...)
the 4580D's are out...oops, Uli, BE027 should have been in there, at least the letters on the pcb makes me believing this (according to Dipl.-Ing. Uli: "unique and vastly improved operational amplifiers"...)
OK, cynic hate mode off...
Yes i want the full mod.
I wonder, henk, if the BA14741 and BA10234 wouldn't get too hot with 18V, if i only change the opamps in the vca line...?
Another task would be recapping the bad electrolytes. These are, like mostly in Uli b's gear, the cheap jamicon and similar caps (brands usually on the blacklist of known-to fail-and-very-bad computer mainboard caps)...
If the unit sounds as good as you say, it would even be a good idea to change 22pF's to silver mica and for shure to replace all 100n's with film.
I just have to figure out tomorrow how to substitute 7818/7918 with 317/337...all i have here at the moment and surely a bit quieter...
Kind regards
henk
Well-known member
Ok you have done the first part , mostly i cut those ic feet with a special cutter and not with a dremel(like).
What i ment with boxed is that the case is closed again and the air through the case is 0 , so then temp is going up , so if you take a little more powered trafo the temp will stay low. The 7818/7919 will always have some temp but will not be so hot.
To build the 317/337 in is a little too much , first space on the powersupply site is nice but not that big , then you have to put tantals somewhere and then you still have to callibrate it , the advantage is you will have a better CMRR on the powersupply.
All the caps that are on the pcbs of the powersupply to the opamps were not even changed , we only changed the ics in the audiopath and the ics in the powersupply + trafo. Nothing more is done.
And they do work great , if you would like to hear them before changing your own then go to a nice concert in "Het Bolwerk" in Sneek (Holland/Nederland) there the PA will sound Super , not only because all behri... stuff is changed , no (almost) every part you see in that audio chain is changed to the best of it , go and hear it fore your self!!!
What i ment with boxed is that the case is closed again and the air through the case is 0 , so then temp is going up , so if you take a little more powered trafo the temp will stay low. The 7818/7919 will always have some temp but will not be so hot.
To build the 317/337 in is a little too much , first space on the powersupply site is nice but not that big , then you have to put tantals somewhere and then you still have to callibrate it , the advantage is you will have a better CMRR on the powersupply.
All the caps that are on the pcbs of the powersupply to the opamps were not even changed , we only changed the ics in the audiopath and the ics in the powersupply + trafo. Nothing more is done.
And they do work great , if you would like to hear them before changing your own then go to a nice concert in "Het Bolwerk" in Sneek (Holland/Nederland) there the PA will sound Super , not only because all behri... stuff is changed , no (almost) every part you see in that audio chain is changed to the best of it , go and hear it fore your self!!!
henk
Well-known member
The modded thing are for front of house:
The mixer is a TAC Bullet , it was with tl072 and 5532/34 , it is all changed to OPA2604 , the CD4053 for mute is changed in relais and master faders in P&G8120 so now the sound is great that comes out of it!!!!
All the outboard there is done with OPA2604 and put to powersupply +/-18 or +/-24V to get max headroom.
The frequentiefilter is 4 way selfbuild like S. Lipshitz and J. Vanderkooy , a 3 way system is on the net by Sam Electronic Circuits , with the frequeties of 70Hz, 250Hz , 2000Hz.
The PA is done with Crest CA series poweramps and the loudspeakers are Martin Backline type.
The monitor set is done with a Soundcraft 500 40 channel with 12 sites of eq on the end that are of cours put on OPA2604 instead of 4558/4559.
Clean sound up to 118dB(A)normal max over 130dB(A) with no problem , so enough headroom is there to enjoy the sound.
On stage there is enough power comming out of the monitor system by 125dB(A)normal to max 135dB(A).
But it can do also nice low power music very very clean power!!!
There is also a small set , and ofcours the OPA2604 is put in all that equipment aswell.
The mixer is a TAC Bullet , it was with tl072 and 5532/34 , it is all changed to OPA2604 , the CD4053 for mute is changed in relais and master faders in P&G8120 so now the sound is great that comes out of it!!!!
All the outboard there is done with OPA2604 and put to powersupply +/-18 or +/-24V to get max headroom.
The frequentiefilter is 4 way selfbuild like S. Lipshitz and J. Vanderkooy , a 3 way system is on the net by Sam Electronic Circuits , with the frequeties of 70Hz, 250Hz , 2000Hz.
The PA is done with Crest CA series poweramps and the loudspeakers are Martin Backline type.
The monitor set is done with a Soundcraft 500 40 channel with 12 sites of eq on the end that are of cours put on OPA2604 instead of 4558/4559.
Clean sound up to 118dB(A)normal max over 130dB(A) with no problem , so enough headroom is there to enjoy the sound.
On stage there is enough power comming out of the monitor system by 125dB(A)normal to max 135dB(A).
But it can do also nice low power music very very clean power!!!
There is also a small set , and ofcours the OPA2604 is put in all that equipment aswell.
smallbutfine
Well-known member
:grin:
Weelll, cool done henk!!!
Sounds very interesting...just like *your mod suggestions*
->
Right now i changed the opamps against some really cool burr brown stuff...and the psu caps against nichicon PW and...it sounds great. Even without the smarter knee and raised headroom. now i am really really interested to hear it at +-18V!
Wow. I'll definately go up with a toroid that fits the chassis and 7818/7918. This baby is really cool, like my modded alesis, but it has a really different flavour...
For those interested i used OPA2227 and OPA404. the psu xfmr stays mildly warm after just a few hours of compressing.
Much more fun to listen at than i expected.
I did not even listen to my unit stock condition, as i remembered i didn't like to hear them compressing and limiting at live occasions... but with very few changes a cool new toy for me! Actually it is not so dark as my alesis is, but in some way more open in the mids. Although both units use BB, even the opa2227. Very nice. (OK, the 404's are really heavy good stuff...)
Thank you, henk, for bringing this one into my focus. :thumb: :thumb:
Kind regards
Martin
Weelll, cool done henk!!!
Sounds very interesting...just like *your mod suggestions*
->
Right now i changed the opamps against some really cool burr brown stuff...and the psu caps against nichicon PW and...it sounds great. Even without the smarter knee and raised headroom. now i am really really interested to hear it at +-18V!
Wow. I'll definately go up with a toroid that fits the chassis and 7818/7918. This baby is really cool, like my modded alesis, but it has a really different flavour...
For those interested i used OPA2227 and OPA404. the psu xfmr stays mildly warm after just a few hours of compressing.
Much more fun to listen at than i expected.
I did not even listen to my unit stock condition, as i remembered i didn't like to hear them compressing and limiting at live occasions... but with very few changes a cool new toy for me! Actually it is not so dark as my alesis is, but in some way more open in the mids. Although both units use BB, even the opa2227. Very nice. (OK, the 404's are really heavy good stuff...)
Thank you, henk, for bringing this one into my focus. :thumb: :thumb:
Kind regards
Martin
henk
Well-known member
Nice done Martin
Now you already hear the differents , after changing the voltage you will hear again a big differents.
So do try it and tell me if +/- 15V to +/-18V is a big differents , i do like to know if you hear the differents aswell as we do , special the knee will change but head that for you self and tell us.....please.
Now you already hear the differents , after changing the voltage you will hear again a big differents.
So do try it and tell me if +/- 15V to +/-18V is a big differents , i do like to know if you hear the differents aswell as we do , special the knee will change but head that for you self and tell us.....please.
xefe
Active member
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2009
- Messages
- 43
Hi, sorry to revive a very old thread but i think it's better than adding one more since it's related.
i'm currently modding a 2100, already chaged opamps to lme49720 and lme49740, since these are precision i measured dc across the coupling electrolytics and took out the ones that had less than 20mv dc. Sounds nice and clean. Psu caps upgraded to 2200uf before regulators and panasonic fm's 220uf after the regulators.
But, anyone knows anything about this?
"Because the Composer’s controls run such a wide use capability, it is prone to an idiosyncrasy where RMS detection control signals can get mixed in with the audio signal (through a slight crosstalk of the circuitry parts) when the controls are at a maximum setting. We install four capacitors and four resistors in the RMS detection circuit to reduce this interaction. This also allows the controls to be a little more forgiving at the end runs. Now the control of the VCA is more likeable and the noise floor and distortion levels are lower, even when the controls are used near their extremes."
i've been analyzing schematics and comparing with other similar circuits like symetrix 501 but i couldn't get to any conclusion about where these components should be added.
thanks!
i'm currently modding a 2100, already chaged opamps to lme49720 and lme49740, since these are precision i measured dc across the coupling electrolytics and took out the ones that had less than 20mv dc. Sounds nice and clean. Psu caps upgraded to 2200uf before regulators and panasonic fm's 220uf after the regulators.
But, anyone knows anything about this?
"Because the Composer’s controls run such a wide use capability, it is prone to an idiosyncrasy where RMS detection control signals can get mixed in with the audio signal (through a slight crosstalk of the circuitry parts) when the controls are at a maximum setting. We install four capacitors and four resistors in the RMS detection circuit to reduce this interaction. This also allows the controls to be a little more forgiving at the end runs. Now the control of the VCA is more likeable and the noise floor and distortion levels are lower, even when the controls are used near their extremes."
i've been analyzing schematics and comparing with other similar circuits like symetrix 501 but i couldn't get to any conclusion about where these components should be added.
thanks!
Hi xefe,
awesome that there are still people interested in modding the Composers!
I have only recently found this thread. I have bought an analog mixing board recently and got a little delusional, thinking to acquire 24 channels of analog compression to mix totally out the box. Naturally with money being short I decided to go for mdx2000/2100 after I researched a LOT on the web (have 8 boxes = 16 channels already. I don´t REALLY know if that was a good idea, because I still have to finish overhauling the board, set everything up and do a real mix with all that stuff, heh). Having a background in electronics I have also recently started experimenting with modding them (already tried out different opamps like described in this thread).
Anyway, reagarding your question. I have read that text as well and was wondering about it myself. Then after getting and opening more mdx2000´s I´ve realized that two of them already had the caps and resistors fitted. On the mdx2000 there is a small area next to the power supply that already has free space for the electrolytics, and 4 0-ohm bridges next to those.
I have made pictures of the units with and without and will try to attach/upload them.
The resistors measure around 5,3 ohms (not desoldered). Acoording to the color code they might be 5,7 ohms, 2% (sometimes hard to tell the colors apart, you can see yourself in the picture).
The electrolytics say 470uF and 25V.
Please note that I´m talking about mdx2000, cannot say if it´s really the same for 2100´s.
Could you please go more into detail about "i measured dc across the coupling electrolytics and took out the ones that had less than 20mv dc. Sounds nice and clean". Which electrolytics are those? How do you measure them? Did you replace with the same value?
1. Pic is showing empty prepared area for caps and resistors.
awesome that there are still people interested in modding the Composers!
I have only recently found this thread. I have bought an analog mixing board recently and got a little delusional, thinking to acquire 24 channels of analog compression to mix totally out the box. Naturally with money being short I decided to go for mdx2000/2100 after I researched a LOT on the web (have 8 boxes = 16 channels already. I don´t REALLY know if that was a good idea, because I still have to finish overhauling the board, set everything up and do a real mix with all that stuff, heh). Having a background in electronics I have also recently started experimenting with modding them (already tried out different opamps like described in this thread).
Anyway, reagarding your question. I have read that text as well and was wondering about it myself. Then after getting and opening more mdx2000´s I´ve realized that two of them already had the caps and resistors fitted. On the mdx2000 there is a small area next to the power supply that already has free space for the electrolytics, and 4 0-ohm bridges next to those.
I have made pictures of the units with and without and will try to attach/upload them.
The resistors measure around 5,3 ohms (not desoldered). Acoording to the color code they might be 5,7 ohms, 2% (sometimes hard to tell the colors apart, you can see yourself in the picture).
The electrolytics say 470uF and 25V.
Please note that I´m talking about mdx2000, cannot say if it´s really the same for 2100´s.
Could you please go more into detail about "i measured dc across the coupling electrolytics and took out the ones that had less than 20mv dc. Sounds nice and clean". Which electrolytics are those? How do you measure them? Did you replace with the same value?
1. Pic is showing empty prepared area for caps and resistors.
