500 series modular API style console...625CR Control Room Module Done Page 21!!

[Kid Squid]

Hell, I've been away far too long !!!

Truly amazing....

Regards,
Steve

 

[nielsk]

I suggest an option (possible strap jumper and pads...) for transformer input, it could be mounted off module (as many were in older API consoles). I have been very happy with the sound of the Edcor 10K/10K in this application, I like it better than differential in to a 2520, and the price is right.
If you could squeeze 2 more switches in for 2 stereo busses, or even a "switch up-mix A /switch down-mix B" that would eliminate the need for a routing buss module for most folks. Then with a buss module it could be a "switch up-mix/switch down-routing" deal
With just 1 more stereo buss you could sub mix mics & or comp tracks while still monitoring mix, buss compress drums.....

 

[ArnauTS]

That's cool! ;D will look for the updates on the project

 

[jsteiger]

This is good food for thought Niels. It has actually led me to another idea. I will explain.

I think the basic "input module" is about as full as I want it to get. I could use micro switches and add a few more features but we will still need another "something module" for a channel fader or level control as well as busing. Plus, I want to keep the old feel and not get to tiny/micro-ed out like the 200 series.

For busing I have 2 different modules in mind. The first is a 16 subgroup module with a Pan switch and a Stereo switch. From the input module, 3 signals go to the subgroup module. Left/right post-pan pot signals and a mono signal from pre-pan pot. Stereo switch will couple the left/right signals to the stereo 2-mix bus. The Pan switch will determine if the signal that supplies all of the 16 group buses is pre-pan or post pan. IE: Pan switch disengaged = mono signal feeds all 16 subgroups. Pan switch engaged = subgroups follow the pan-pot, Left to Odd subgroups, Right to the Evens. Basic stuff, just like my board. Stereo switch and 2-mix bus is always post-pan pot.

Next bus module would have 8 subgroups and the same Pan and Stereo switch features as mentioned above. I also have the idea of another DOA on this module to supply 4 more level pot controlled sends. I guess they would be 4 more Echo sends but could be referred to as 4 more buses with independent level control ala SSL or even the Legacy. This DOA and 4 pots would be optional for stuffing. Also include would be allocation for another 2623-1 for Direct Out balancing duties from this same 2520. My desk does not have this 3rd DOA but the 2nd stage starts to struggle if feeding a 600 ohm load on the direct out while using all 4 Echo sends and having the Cues set post fader. Coupling any or all of the buses makes no real difference.

OK, we still need channel level control. 2 modules are planned for that. The first is a 1.5" wide X 7" plate that has a full throw 104mm P&G with a nice Grayhill rotary switch to select the channel's mute group. I am thinking 6 mute groups and off. That is all easy enough. We need the 7" layout for the 104mm fader, much like a real console. For those worried about size and space, there will be a 1.5" X 5.25" plate for a P&G 83mm throw fader. If the mute group switch is used on this smaller module, we will have to move the fader over and not in the center. Since the 3000 series faders are only 3/4" wide, that gives us plenty of space along the side for an additional row of switching. This could mean 8 subgroup switches with Pan and Stereo switch. Hey, that's a two for one module!

I suppose someone will want just a simple level pot for a channel fader, which could be handled in many easy ways that would not require any additional pcb's or even metal work.

I think the main concept behind this is to be very "500 like" conceptually. Once the basic 8 bucket channel frame is set and the motherboard layout is set in stone, anybody could design or build any module they want for it. All the bus tracks are there if you want 2 Cues, 2 Echos and 2 sets of stereo buses no problem. I imagine there will be a few different "input modules" by a few different designers/builders. To each his own.  ;D

Cheers, Jeff

 

[zayance]

8)

 

[fluxivity]

Those, damn mute groups just killed me. I had this big awful mute matrix box that detached from the producers desk so that someone could sit with it in their lap and, you know, mute groups. Nightmare. Ultimation, of course that took away ALL the joy of hand mixing the final mixdown. . . tradeoffs, who needs em!

 

[jsteiger]

BTW flux, I forgot to tell you, I rather enjoyed your story even though it was a sad one.  :'(

I had loosely considered a 4048e but thankfully I had a good listen to a similar model in town and never looked back. Routing wise, the SSL was the shit, but sonically I didn't like it. Sorry to those I am offending but you can pry my old API from my cold, dead hands!  Run some tracks thru on old API and like you say, "sounds like a record". Run the same tracks through an SSL and after some serious eq'ing, channel compression and so on, it sounds like a less dynamic record. But, they still hold the record for the most mixed hits I suppose. I mean, 1 level pot for 4 sends? That is a little tough to work with so I feel your pain there. That is how my whole adventure got started.

best, Jeff

 

[grantlack]

to keep the strange yet wonderful amalgam of size standards that the 51x project has fused thusfar, might it be considered to develop the buckets in the same 3RU, 11-channel configuration as the current 511 racks?  this would just take some modification to the backplane and possibly the I/O.  the usual 8-channel modular "standard" would obviously be sacrificed, but IMO that's more hearkening to tape than ubiquitous DAW usage.  bolting could be done via strap plates across ventilation holes on top and bottom if spacing for rack ears was undesirable in a desk configuration, or rack ears could be attached to console buckets for more mobile recording setups (like the workhorse but with WAY more routing).  plus, if one were to build their desk with rack rails instead of fixing modules together, desk buckets could be pulled and taken on the road in no time flat.  the power supply would just be a matter of beefing up the trafo in the current 51x rack unit.  plus you could call the console buckets 511c's, and that's got an even better ring to it than 512c  ;D

sorry if i'm hijacking or overstepping jeff, i've just gotten hooked on the idea of the 51x platform compatibility and utility in the past few days.  this could be another way to keep it multi-functional and allow for a broader group to get involved.

 

[fluxivity]

The E series was a great console, but I don't miss it like the API. the best thing about it was my studio had the loudest mixes in town, if not necessariy the best sounding. It made mic choice and placement a much more serious concern. The API is so forgiving, which is great for me cause I have no clue what I'm doing most of the time. It's amazing, it just does grows hair on the electrons as they go through it. The ssl gave them a bath got them all presentable for polite (radio) society.

 

[Tubemooley]

I suggest an option (possible strap jumper and pads...) for transformer input, it could be mounted off module (as many were in older API consoles). I have been very happy with the sound of the Edcor 10K/10K in this application, I like it better than differential in to a 2520, and the price is right.

I hope I am not blatantly hi-jacking here..... Nielsk..... You like the Edcor 10k/10k for balanced line-level input? I think I have a couple of those in my shop but I haven't actually used them recently. I am a fan of transformer input for line-level. It's always a hard choice between Tx-balanced and electronically-balanced. DW.

 

[jsteiger]

to keep the strange yet wonderful amalgam of size standards that the 51x project has fused thusfar, might it be considered to develop the buckets in the same 3RU, 11-channel configuration as the current 511 racks?...

I had given this some serious thought last year when I got involved with Volker and Cemal for the 51x project. There is definitely an appeal for working with the same size format (11 space). I had also briefly thought of using the 3/4" format but that is way too drastically different. BTW, I think the Tonelux stuff is 1.1" for 16 modules in a 19" rack space. Very nice engineering but limiting at the same time. Mostly since the 3rd party modules for the 500 format are growing incredibly. Not so much for the Tonelux format.

Unfortunately (or fortunately!), I think we may someday end up with both sizes, 8 space and 11 space as there are very good pros and cons to both.

I will be asking Volker to do an 8 space version of his GDIY 51x backplane for our pre's, eq's and the like. Partially it's selfish as I need 4 of these 8 channel buckets for the eq portion of my new, discrete monitor section.

Also, from what I have seen and been contacted about, I think the 8 space is the best, first place to start. As far as console work and bolting multiple sections together, the 8 space will be much more rigid as the 11 space will get a little twisty/flimsy on us.

But like I say, I'm pretty certain there will also be 11 space versions available in the future.

The E series was a great console, but I don't miss it like the API. the best thing about it was my studio had the loudest mixes in town, if not necessariy the best sounding. It made mic choice and placement a much more serious concern. The API is so forgiving, which is great for me cause I have no clue what I'm doing most of the time. It's amazing, it just does grows hair on the electrons as they go through it. The ssl gave them a bath got them all presentable for polite (radio) society.

Very nicely put. I mostly have no clue what I'm doing that's why the API is such a good fit for me. My short but first impressions of the SSL were a little cloudy and fluffy in the low mids. Maybe pillowy. It was very opposite of what I expected. It may also be due to the fact that API is so tight and focused in this particular area.

Cheers, Jeff

 

[zayance]

The ssl gave them a bath got them all presentable for polite (radio) society

I like the way this sounds 

 

[[silent:arts]]

I will be asking Volker to do an 8 space version of his GDIY 51x backplane for our pre's, eq's and the like. Partially it's selfish as I need 4 of these 8 channel buckets for the eq portion of my new, discrete monitor section.

you can have as many space versions like you want.
there was a discussion about 12 spaces, which is ready and even prototype PCBs were made ;D
cutting it down to 8 is not too much work.
my main concern is the room for the GDIY508 lettering ;D ;D ;D

 

[fluxivity]

It may also be due to the fact that API is so tight and focused in this particular area.

Cheers, Jeff

That was the secret of the whole thing. A little cut on the kick drum 560 to get it out of the way of the bass, a little cut on the bass 560 to free it a bit from the kick drum and that was that.

 

[fluxivity]

Jeff, suppose you didn't have the luxury of yr console, only the enineering discussed in this thread. What would you be considering for a control section.
thx - P

 

[PATAPETER]

Dear Jeff : I'm with you in everything, What you tell about an SSL . I will always prefer my old api rather than an SSL full of IC's.
             Here is what i think of this proyect. I 've got the same vision looking at my Api. Create an small Api summing for another B studio with all the best i love of my console but with upgrades.
 First I will LOVE to have the mic/line switch , When i look in my schematics , the line and mic pre uses the same 2520 , so no extra money on that , you only will need an 2622 transformer.And i have a couples 512 c , but they don't sound the same at all, they got to much gain and i need to pad them all the time, because of the jensen transformers. Later i will discus this with you.
So putting a mic pre will be great feature when recording in an small B studio. I use another small desck for monitoring or you can use another channels in line mode . My setup is an protools HD 2 accel pcie , And my proyect will have 16 ch's. So you can use a couple of channels for rec an another to monitoring the pt outs.
Second I use the filter always, good point there.
8 submaster like the 2488.
If you're mixing you will use the insert point to Eq or Comp.You will need an 2503 (send to patchbay) and another 2520 (return from patchbay ) to unbalanced the signal again , and then go to fader and then to pan pot  and the pan to buss also , and then later to ST buss or Submaster. (in my 528 that's the path ).
No need of direct out or multi out of the channel. But if you will use it as mic pre you can use the 8 submaster to go to Protools or Tape machine ( i have an Ampex MM-1100 16 trks and MM- 1200 24 trks ).
Then I will need ST and SUBmasters summing. Your great work !!! the ACA booster cards.I can do a small version of yours if i don't use any master fader in the ST and SUBmaster busses. Only an 2520 + 2503 or 2623 the one that you prefers.
That's the simply version of what i will need.
At this point is the basic what i 'll need to mix. I can use all FX's in the protools o any DAW you are using.So no need of aux send or cue send.
But I love the other stuff that you have added. You are trying to make an small console with all the featuring of your large format console.
I'm with you ,I will love to add:
Solo in place, mute button , 8 aux send or 4 st ,with switch pre/post.( so no cue send needed )
I think you don't need mute groups , you can do that on your DAW.
And the fader could be one rotary in steps for easy recall .Master fader not in steps. All of your automation will be done on your DAW.
Also I will need a Control Room. Option is to use an external one like the big knob . But i prefer an api one.
But definitively I will prefer an 528 format than the 500 series.
Here are my thoughts  , I hope you find it usable by you.
This is what I will try to build.

 

[funkymonksf]

Jeff you're my hero.  What's the time line on this bad boy?

-Brice Conrad

 

[boji]

"You will need an 2503 (send to patchbay) and another 2520 (return from patchbay ) to unbalanced the signal again , and then go to fader and then to pan pot  and the pan to buss also , and then later to ST buss or Submaster. (in my 528 that's the path ). "

Isn't this already accounted for in his shema on page one?

 

[jsteiger]

"You will need an 2503 (send to patchbay) and another 2520 (return from patchbay ) to unbalanced the signal again , and then go to fader and then to pan pot  and the pan to buss also , and then later to ST buss or Submaster. (in my 528 that's the path ). "

Isn't this already accounted for in his shema on page one?

Yes, correcto mundo boji.    I have all of this taken into account and it's in the circuit...except the preamp out(send) is balanced and boosted 1:2 with 2623-1 not a 2503, just like my desk.

Also the return signal from the channel EQ or insert point, returns unbalanced and goes directly to the channel fader. So, the channel EQ module (or 1st stage 2520 if no EQ is used) drives the fader. From the fader wiper then to the 2nd stage 2520 and to the rest of the business.

I have what I want to do for the center section. I just have not had enough time lately to explain it all. Very similar to my board only slightly updated. Very basic but all needed items should be accounted for.

Cheers, 

Jeff

 

[PATAPETER]

Jeff : I was wrong about the 2503 , the xfmrs inside the 528 modules are 2157 , Do you know something about them ? the only purpose is to balance the insert send and the multi out channel. Can be replaced by a 2623 ? I think the 2157 are smaller . Does yur modules have 2157 's ?

Regards

pedro