AMS Neve 1073 Sweeps
- Thread starter Aaronrash
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tommypiper
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CJ said:
It says at the end of the review that he relied on Fletcher and Dan Kennedy for information on Neves... the author is no Neve expert. Seems like a very generic albeit somewhat detailed, review, written mostly to tout the AMS reissue.
I'm slightly skeptical that different trace layouts will change the sound. I don't want to start another discussion... but an overview as I understand: the trace layout does effect digital PCB performance apparently and there are a lot of esoteric things that happen and can explain it in the digital realm, but in analog? Things are more basic in analog. I suspect however what happens in analog are things like: the new traces often are too thin, traces too close together, grounding changes, ground loops on the PCB, other ground issues, also subtle changes in the circuit result when changing traces and connections around -- when it appears to be correct on the schematic but in fact a new junction of traces has changed the way components interact because of one of many possible reasons including having changed the order in which components connect, etc... I think these things and similar can explain why people have experienced changes and problems in a circuit performance when redrawing a PCB. But if done right, it shouldn't have (much of, or noticeable) an effect. Mistakes on PCBs are also common and hard to spot, and sometimes persist forever. So actually many possible reasons.
And, when we have to admit that even wire can effect sound and performance, at least in some cases, then we have to admit that a PCB layout can have an effect too. But in the larger scheme of things, it's usually not an issue, just as wire is usually not an issue. Just my observations and rambles…
dmp
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Are you not going to use edge connectors with the self etch cards? Or can you have them gold plated to resist corrosion?
Nice project - taking DIY to the top level. It's nice to see those high quality parts.
How is the per channel cost of your build comparing to the AMS?
Nice project - taking DIY to the top level. It's nice to see those high quality parts.
How is the per channel cost of your build comparing to the AMS?
Aaronrash
Well-known member
I decided to wire directly to the cards versus using card edge connectors. There's really no point in doing so, it would have made my cases Dan is making me much more expensive. For the prototypes at least I decided to go straight to the cards. on standoffs, but the cards will still be stacked like in the originals, so component placement will be the same.
Cost is a million times cheaper. I can build a pair of 1073's with a PSU for less than the price of 1 AMS unit without the rack. Extra $850 for the VK rack witch I just bought today, on top of the $3400 for the module it's crazy expensive to go AMS. But so worth it.
From my last 6 years of using AMS 1084's everyday as well as vintage units, no clones come close...The BAE's don't sound right to me, although they sound really good. The AMS Reissues and the Vintage units sound pretty much interchangeable to me. I would be fine with either.
More build coming soon.
Cost is a million times cheaper. I can build a pair of 1073's with a PSU for less than the price of 1 AMS unit without the rack. Extra $850 for the VK rack witch I just bought today, on top of the $3400 for the module it's crazy expensive to go AMS. But so worth it.
From my last 6 years of using AMS 1084's everyday as well as vintage units, no clones come close...The BAE's don't sound right to me, although they sound really good. The AMS Reissues and the Vintage units sound pretty much interchangeable to me. I would be fine with either.
More build coming soon.
desol
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Interesting thread Aaron and nice work on the build.
For interests sake, I recorded a couple spoken word samples between three of my units: Neve 1290 copy, MBOX preamp, and API312(2622 inputs).
Neve build was laborious. I took extra time and care to get them as 'close to original as possible, so I know where you are coming from. Original inputs and outputs, components, etc.
Was a lot of work. Termination capacitors are different as I wasn't sure what the originals were or how much of a difference it would make. Mic was a Sony C48.
Hope you guys enjoy the comparison or at least find it interesting.
Picture
Samples: https://soundcloud.com/groupdiy/ez1290-km84
https://soundcloud.com/groupdiy/ez1290-mbox-api312-preamps
For interests sake, I recorded a couple spoken word samples between three of my units: Neve 1290 copy, MBOX preamp, and API312(2622 inputs).
Neve build was laborious. I took extra time and care to get them as 'close to original as possible, so I know where you are coming from. Original inputs and outputs, components, etc.
Was a lot of work. Termination capacitors are different as I wasn't sure what the originals were or how much of a difference it would make. Mic was a Sony C48.
Hope you guys enjoy the comparison or at least find it interesting.
Picture
Samples: https://soundcloud.com/groupdiy/ez1290-km84
https://soundcloud.com/groupdiy/ez1290-mbox-api312-preamps
Back to the title of this thread..
Can you post a sweep of the ams unit now that you have one ? (like I did in first page with a precise scale around +-0.5 dB would be perfect)...I still find hard to believe that so much differences in sound cannot be measured...did you measure the mic input too since the comparative samples were vocals through mic input and not line input ?
Does ams put a 600 ohm termination resistor ?
Since you already have rew, you can try to measure thd of your unit in rew with the module RTA ( as long as thd produced by the neve preamp is higher than the one from your soundcard and it shoud be....)
Can you post a sweep of the ams unit now that you have one ? (like I did in first page with a precise scale around +-0.5 dB would be perfect)...I still find hard to believe that so much differences in sound cannot be measured...did you measure the mic input too since the comparative samples were vocals through mic input and not line input ?
Does ams put a 600 ohm termination resistor ?
Since you already have rew, you can try to measure thd of your unit in rew with the module RTA ( as long as thd produced by the neve preamp is higher than the one from your soundcard and it shoud be....)
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Aaronrash
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Cool I will post some sweeps...
But yes they measure pretty much the same. I don't have my EZ1073 anymore but I saved all the measurements on my system.
All the measurements posted have always been through the mic since that's what I use these for.
The AMS actually rolls off slightly in the high end but it sure doesn't sound like it does!
From my experience as I said before, units can measure the same and sound completely different. My tech always taught me that it's whats above and below 20Hz/kHz that's more informative in figuring out what's going on in a circuit.
There's something happening harmonically in the AMS 1073 I have as well as my 1084's I had that is very magical. It is my belief that the wiring and particularly small GND wires inside the unit that create this sound.
If you think about it, on the EZ1073 the entire board is a massive ground. Only the traces are isolated from it so anywhere there's a discharge its instantaneous... There's no energy build up.
Rewind back to 1970, the entire ground structure inside the module is on 1 tiny 22AWG wire that travels through all the cards on a one way road then to pin E on the back of the unit. It creates a bit of a traffic jam so to speak so when electrons want out they have to wait their turn.
To me this has to affect the sound in one way or another. But I think it's everything. Allot of factors.
But yes they measure pretty much the same. I don't have my EZ1073 anymore but I saved all the measurements on my system.
All the measurements posted have always been through the mic since that's what I use these for.
The AMS actually rolls off slightly in the high end but it sure doesn't sound like it does!
From my experience as I said before, units can measure the same and sound completely different. My tech always taught me that it's whats above and below 20Hz/kHz that's more informative in figuring out what's going on in a circuit.
There's something happening harmonically in the AMS 1073 I have as well as my 1084's I had that is very magical. It is my belief that the wiring and particularly small GND wires inside the unit that create this sound.
If you think about it, on the EZ1073 the entire board is a massive ground. Only the traces are isolated from it so anywhere there's a discharge its instantaneous... There's no energy build up.
Rewind back to 1970, the entire ground structure inside the module is on 1 tiny 22AWG wire that travels through all the cards on a one way road then to pin E on the back of the unit. It creates a bit of a traffic jam so to speak so when electrons want out they have to wait their turn.
To me this has to affect the sound in one way or another. But I think it's everything. Allot of factors.
I've studied the EZ1073 circuit and it looks like there's additional gain stage (called Gain Stage 2 Boost). This stage is missing in the original 1073 (at least I can't find it there). This may be the reason why those two don't sound the same. I believe the closer you are to hight gains, the more obvious this should be.
Aaronrash
Well-known member
The gain stage boost is in the original as well. It's the 18K on the 283 and the 15K on the 284
The actually feedback boost is connected to pin T on the B283 Card.
The actually feedback boost is connected to pin T on the B283 Card.
Aaronrash
Well-known member
Schematic wise, the EZ1073 circuit is on point. The gain switch structure is a bit different, but there isn't really any red flags in the circuit to explain why it sounds so different.
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