bruno2000
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Aaronrash said:
AMS Neve 1073 Sweeps
- Thread starter Aaronrash
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Aaronrash
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Aaronrash
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bieckmusic
Well-known member
Thanks so much, I'm really enjoying watching this thread... Amazing that the same components, and circuit can sound so different. I was wondering if anyone here built a Ten81 pre, and if it had the magic mojo.
I also really agree with you that there's an open-ness to the old units that my clones don't have, and they're not ez-1073s, my clones are commercially built by someone else.
There's something in the 1073 circuit that seems difficult to reproduce, but the api 312 circuit doesn't seem hard to reproduce. My api clones sound great.
There's no technical measurement that explains why the Samuel Barber Adagio for Strings is so awesome, it's a really simple piece of music...but rocks!
thanks for the inspiring thread
I also really agree with you that there's an open-ness to the old units that my clones don't have, and they're not ez-1073s, my clones are commercially built by someone else.
There's something in the 1073 circuit that seems difficult to reproduce, but the api 312 circuit doesn't seem hard to reproduce. My api clones sound great.
There's no technical measurement that explains why the Samuel Barber Adagio for Strings is so awesome, it's a really simple piece of music...but rocks!
thanks for the inspiring thread
rainton
Well-known member
Great thread! Been following it for a long time now!
Is there any chance you would share the files for etching the pcbs? And a BOM of what exact parts you used?
That would be soo awesome since the schematics can easily be found, but I have no AMS Neve unit here I could copy the
pcbs/traces from - and it seems with the 1073 in particular it's mandatory to follow the original layout as much as possible if you want to have THAT sound.
Anyway keep it up - I'm sure it'll be worth it!
Is there any chance you would share the files for etching the pcbs? And a BOM of what exact parts you used?
That would be soo awesome since the schematics can easily be found, but I have no AMS Neve unit here I could copy the
pcbs/traces from - and it seems with the 1073 in particular it's mandatory to follow the original layout as much as possible if you want to have THAT sound.
Anyway keep it up - I'm sure it'll be worth it!
rainton said:
Although this will make the life much easier, there's plenty of info and photos of Neve cards around the net. It's absolutely possible to make the layout copy using this information.
BOM can be useful, but could be easily figured out as well. Unfortunately, a lot of styrenes are being phased out by manufacturers. Get them while you can.
ding
Well-known member
rainton said:
I did some hard core interwebs hunting and found one and only one set of PCBs for the 1073. It was quite a pain cause a lot of files have been removed from the net. They are hand drawn in corel and made into pdfs. The components are included in each. I actually had to use the wayback machine to get at them so if there are better files out there it would be great. With these I think the hard part would just be making that gain switch and connecting all of these together. Hopefully this thread will shed some light on that. You will need to change the file extension from .doc to .zip.
ding said:
Thanks for sharing. I've seen those files as well. The form of traces doesn't look like the original ones do. The component layout is close though.
BA205 in PDFs doesn't look like the one I have on the picture.
ding
Well-known member
Ilya said:
Yup that BA205 looks different. This was supposedly copied from a 1073 so maybe this guys 1073 looked like that. Maybe someone else will share? Here are some good references.
http://twin-x.com/groupdiy/thumbnails.php?album=154
came from here...
http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=25053.0
rainton
Well-known member
ding said:
Yeah thanks for sharing!!!
Great info!
ding
Well-known member
rainton said:
You might want to read thru that post I referenced. Hopefully Aaron will post some PDFs of his etch files in this thread so we can try at home.
Here are the samples I record through the units with gain/delay compensation (I used aaron ez1073's sample ) :
First is original layout , then ez1073 then diff (original layout +ez out of phase)
https://soundcloud.com/aerige/original-layout-1073-ba283-vs
Termination is 600 ohms for both units.
) : First is original layout , then ez1073 then diff (original layout +ez out of phase)
https://soundcloud.com/aerige/original-layout-1073-ba283-vs
Termination is 600 ohms for both units.
Attachments
AErige said:Here are the samples I record through the units with gain/delay compensation (I used aaron ez1073's sample
First is original layout , then ez1073 then diff (original layout +ez out of phase)
To me, the difference is not as drastic as in Aarons example.
Here are samples of ez and original ba283 layout vs AD/DA Converter unit looped (w/ software gain/delay compensation of course) :
First is original layout then AD/DA unit loop, then diff ( AD/DA loop + original layout out of phase)
Second is ez1073 then AD/DA unit loop, then diff (AD/DA loop +ez out of phase)
https://soundcloud.com/aerige/original-layout-ba283-an
https://soundcloud.com/aerige/ez1073-an-device-diff
I can hear more differences between AD/DA alone and one of the 1073 unit+AD/DA unit than between original layout and ez1073 (both with AD/DA unit of course). and you ?
First is original layout then AD/DA unit loop, then diff ( AD/DA loop + original layout out of phase)
Second is ez1073 then AD/DA unit loop, then diff (AD/DA loop +ez out of phase)
https://soundcloud.com/aerige/original-layout-ba283-an
https://soundcloud.com/aerige/ez1073-an-device-diff
I can hear more differences between AD/DA alone and one of the 1073 unit+AD/DA unit than between original layout and ez1073 (both with AD/DA unit of course). and you ?
Aaronrash
Well-known member
Hi AE,
How are you setting this up. If you're just patching the EZ 1073 into a B283 card you etched it won't yield much of a difference even though there is one. You also have to plate the cards.
Also the PSU is different in the VK rack compared to the EZ
There is a entire other gain stage on the B284 did you etch that as well? Then they all must be wired up like a original. Unless you've completely cloned a original unit like I am doing, it's not going to sound the same. Also what transformers are you using? I am using the green can AMS transformers, as well as the AMS output transformers. Yes they say they are the same but I've already found differences in both during building and measuring.
Also If you're going Line instead of Mic the gain staging will be completely different and not yield the same results. All my test are MIC in. It's easier here because I use the same mic for all my test in the same room with the same converters. It's quick and easy to hear the differences between the two.
I have the EZ1073's back as well due to the case being damaged during shipping so while repairing the EZ units I ran test . I compared them directly to my AMS 1073. They sound different... Same exact sound and conclusion as before in my previous samples. I also have a Neve 1084 I just bought from vintageking. The circuit is a little different between the 84 and 73 but again...It also sound's very different from the EZ1073.
I'll post more later when I finish my builds.
How are you setting this up. If you're just patching the EZ 1073 into a B283 card you etched it won't yield much of a difference even though there is one. You also have to plate the cards.
Also the PSU is different in the VK rack compared to the EZ
There is a entire other gain stage on the B284 did you etch that as well? Then they all must be wired up like a original. Unless you've completely cloned a original unit like I am doing, it's not going to sound the same. Also what transformers are you using? I am using the green can AMS transformers, as well as the AMS output transformers. Yes they say they are the same but I've already found differences in both during building and measuring.
Also If you're going Line instead of Mic the gain staging will be completely different and not yield the same results. All my test are MIC in. It's easier here because I use the same mic for all my test in the same room with the same converters. It's quick and easy to hear the differences between the two.
I have the EZ1073's back as well due to the case being damaged during shipping so while repairing the EZ units I ran test . I compared them directly to my AMS 1073. They sound different... Same exact sound and conclusion as before in my previous samples. I also have a Neve 1084 I just bought from vintageking. The circuit is a little different between the 84 and 73 but again...It also sound's very different from the EZ1073.
I'll post more later when I finish my builds.
Aaronrash
Well-known member
They used completely different bypass capacitance's and circuit. The grounding scheme is very different as well. They also use a 5K fader pot instead of the 10K with compensation like the EZ. allot of the wire inside of my AMS is also shielded in a very specific way.
Basically, to anyone that wants a 1073 that sounds identical to the AMS the only way to do it is buy a AMS do what I've done and build one side by side to a real unit with the same parts and the same layouts with the same wire, same same switches down to the layouts of the boards and wire them all together the exact same way with the exact same wire, then test them side by side, bias it the same way, and compare them until you can't hear any difference. After that sell your AMS. You will have gained allot of knowledge going this route and this is what it really takes in my opinion. I think you really need to get in with hands on experience if you really want to understand why these sound the way they do. I could post on here all day long but unless you have a actual unit you can dig through its not the same.
The difference in sound is not a question at this point anymore. They are all different and this was confirmed again after I gave up and bought the AMS unit, again. That sound was back.
I however will always keep my AMS 1073 and 1084. But I've owned all the clones, built the EZ units, and have gotten to know all of them and their sound intimately. AMS are my fav, BAE second favorite, EZ1073 cool but different, they are all different sounding. If you like the super processed bright silky sound the only way to get it is with a AMS unit. Or clone one the same way I am doing with the same components and their transformers.
I will however help in any way I can and keep posting the build process. The custom cases come in tomorrow and this time the PSU will be separate in its own rack. Post more tomorrow!
Basically, to anyone that wants a 1073 that sounds identical to the AMS the only way to do it is buy a AMS do what I've done and build one side by side to a real unit with the same parts and the same layouts with the same wire, same same switches down to the layouts of the boards and wire them all together the exact same way with the exact same wire, then test them side by side, bias it the same way, and compare them until you can't hear any difference. After that sell your AMS. You will have gained allot of knowledge going this route and this is what it really takes in my opinion. I think you really need to get in with hands on experience if you really want to understand why these sound the way they do. I could post on here all day long but unless you have a actual unit you can dig through its not the same.
The difference in sound is not a question at this point anymore. They are all different and this was confirmed again after I gave up and bought the AMS unit, again. That sound was back.
I however will always keep my AMS 1073 and 1084. But I've owned all the clones, built the EZ units, and have gotten to know all of them and their sound intimately. AMS are my fav, BAE second favorite, EZ1073 cool but different, they are all different sounding. If you like the super processed bright silky sound the only way to get it is with a AMS unit. Or clone one the same way I am doing with the same components and their transformers.
I will however help in any way I can and keep posting the build process. The custom cases come in tomorrow and this time the PSU will be separate in its own rack. Post more tomorrow!
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