AMS Neve 1073 Sweeps

[desol]

So we never did find out anything conclusive.

For interests sake, I'd also like to point out that an AMS 1073DPA has completely different layout, wiring, etc....than a 1073 module.

 

[Aaronrash]

Yes but its pretty common knowledge that thier DPA usints don't sound the same. They are marketed like they do but I owned one for a while. They sound great, really great! but not the same.

I think it's the sum of all things. The layout of the etched boards. One other thing I noted is they added solder on my AMS tracks to make them thicker. I did that on mine too. The wire has capacitance and most people think that it's such small capacitance that it doesn't affect the sound but they are wrong.

To anyone that doesn't believe this, wire up a unit for yourself and actually see how many feet of wire is used. Easily over 100 ft of wire in each unit. They are just heat shirked and organized nicely, I was definitely surprised I had to get allot more wire than I thought I would need.

Component selection matters too of course, I matched the same components for the most part. The AMS have fairchild BC184C, mine do as well. Bias is also extremely critical.

Transformers matter allot less than I think most people realize as I've learned. The stock Carnhills are fine. I used the AMS ones in my build though.

It's everything. Not just one thing.

Actually I can vouch for Mark at BAE he is absolutely right about the wiring. It changes the sound allot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mgkE2G1Tnc

skip to 13:00 where he talks about circuit boards vs wire.

 

[desol]

Yes but its pretty common knowledge that their DPA units don't sound the same. They are marketed that they do but I owned one for a while. They sound great, really great! but not the same.

I have read quite a few reviews, all over the internet on the DPA, pointing out the high frequency response similarity to a standard 1073 module. AMS also claims that it's identical, which would coincide with the things I've read. They are both AMS built units after all, measured, tested, right? 

The DPA also isn't cheap at $3000.

I'm starting to lean towards the notion, that AMS units are simply measured and 'tuned', to ensure a high frequency response up to and extending beyond 50khz. Something that Rupert is quite adamant about. This may have more to do with the 'Neve Sheen'.

Edit: It's also somewhat ironic, as I've read a number of reviews saying that BAE units, do not have the described Neve sheen, per say or sizzle...and are more like the 'darker' sounding Neve modules.

 

[Aaronrash]

Yes but its pretty common knowledge that their DPA units don't sound the same. They are marketed that they do but I owned one for a while. They sound great, really great! but not the same.

I have read quite a few reviews, all over the internet on the DPA, pointing out the high frequency response similarity to a standard 1073 module. AMS also claims that it's identical, which would coincide with the things I've read. They are both AMS built units after all, measured, tested, right? 

The DPA also isn't cheap at $3000.

I'm starting to lean towards the notion, that AMS units are simply measured and 'tuned', to ensure a high frequency response up to and extending beyond 50khz. Something that Rupert is quite adamant about. This may have more to do with the 'Neve Sheen'.

I wouldn't believe everything people say on the internet, especially Gearslutz out of all places. I have personally owned the DPA at the same time of owning my AMS modules It had a high frequency sheen for sure. Like I said it sounded really nice but it didn't quite sound like my classic modules, and you shouldn't really expect it to. It's a totally different layout with different components and different input TX. I always test things out for myself and gain real world experience before jumping to conclusions if that isn't obvious already.

The module I just built didn't come out of a Neve factory and it sounds exactly like my AMS modules.

Who said these units measure perfectly above 50Khz? they look like a nightmare up at 50K. The only thing they do at the factory is bias them witch is very important. Beyond that they are measured for frequency response and distortion and then they are off to go.

 

[Aaronrash]

I think the comments of the BAE units being darker has to do allot with the crazy amount of capacitance they throw on the 2N3055 witch isn't the stock value. AMS doesn't do that

 

[desol]

Who said these units measure perfectly above 50Khz? they look like a nightmare up at 50K. The only thing they do at the factory is bias them witch is very important. Beyond that they are measured for frequency response and distortion and then they are off to go.

I've just heard Rupert talking at great length about ensuring extended frequency response. It may have nothing to do with the 1073, or his older designs...

Either way, I can't wait to get my hands on an AMS unit...and compare.

 

[Aaronrash]

Wait no longer. I just recorded these

https://www.mediafire.com/?s4356r0a23mly91  (My Build)
https://www.mediafire.com/?lp5hqeqvp9kqiqx  (AMS 1084)
https://www.mediafire.com/?z9gkap6cd8b11yd (EZ1073) Sound sure has come a long way since then!

 

[desol]

I meant compare, with my unit... 

 

[AErige]

I think the comments of the BAE units being darker has to do allot with the crazy amount of capacitance they throw on the 2N3055 witch isn't the stock value. AMS doesn't do that

you mean the mod from geoff to increase the decoupling cap of the 2N3055 stage from 470u to 3-4000uF ?

I've just heard Rupert talking at great length about ensuring extended frequency response. It may have nothing to do with the 1073

I don't think it is the case for the 1073 when you are already at -4dB at 20KHz when eq is engaged.

next month I'm gonna visit a friend who owns a dpa, some vintage units and classic ams units... I'll sure take some time to compare my units with his.....but I won't bother comparing the 20k-50kHz range since nobody can hear it and even though dogs can, ADConverter took care of it.

 

[Aaronrash]

Yeah I wouldn't worry about to super HF too much but it is still important. No better way than to compare yourself to a genuine unit and study the files to make sure you have the sound you want.

 

[desol]

Wait no longer. I just recorded these

https://www.mediafire.com/?s4356r0a23mly91  (My Build)
https://www.mediafire.com/?lp5hqeqvp9kqiqx  (AMS 1084)
https://www.mediafire.com/?z9gkap6cd8b11yd (EZ1073) Sound sure has come a long way since then!

To tell you the truth Aaron, I don't really hear any huge differences in these samples. They all sound fairly similar...other than you spoke into the last sample differently.

Good upper mid response and good low end response.

I'm not sure what you mean by, "sound sure has come a long way since then"...on the EZ1073 sample. Did you change something on it while repairing the damage, or....

 

[Aaronrash]

If you don't hear a big difference between the EZ1073 sample compared to the others I don't really know what to say... Yes I spoke different but the tone isn't there at all. It sounds muffled


Anyways here's what I did with the boards it's harder to tell on the AMS boards because the solder they use isn't shiny but they cake a bunch of solder on all the tracks to make them thicker.

 

[Aaronrash]

No, That is the EZ1073 after I finished installing all the BC caps. They already have the AMS transformers in them and all the same components as the AMS, minus the layout of course.

 

[Aaronrash]

205

 

[Aaronrash]

Also, make sure you download the files and listen. If you use the mediafire player it encodes a horrible compression on them

 

[desol]

Hmm. Interesting about the tracks being thickened. I wonder what the reason behind this is.

I noticed on my API 312's that the tracks are thickened up like that, I was assuming it was to simply to make them more durable, or something.

 

[desol]

Downloaded and listened again with headphones.

Yeah, has a noticeable air in the top end...but I would say that most of the timbre of everything else is quite similar. Hmph.

 

[bieckmusic]

I listened to the three samples in a pro mix/mastering room with through the ProTools HDX w HD IO avid converters.  There are major sonic differences between the three sound samples.  Night and Day.  Thank you so much for the comparison, really appreciate your hard work.  The 1084 sample is slightly distorted but I still could hear what was going on.

I really noticed the difference and enjoyed the sound of your home etch!  EZ1073 totally not happening, boomy and mid-rangy no high end.  Just to be fair to the EZ1073 were there any other variables that were different? 

 

[Aaronrash]

Yep!

Funny you mention that...whats kinda strange is my AMS module distorts before my build does. Not really sure why... It's a carbon copy but my build has a ton of power. I've since finished up small little things with the build and discovered some cool tricks to make the modules even sound even better.

I'm gonna upload some more samples today and I have the EZ units here still so I can do them all at the same time for consistency to make a little more accurate test. But I'm at the point where I prefer my build slightly over the AMS. So It's safe to say mission accomplished. My Neve quest is finally over for good.

By the way with the EZ 1073 there were no variables. Same mic same room same converters just a different day.

More soon!

 

[desol]

And spoken completely differently, to be utterly fair. Aaron, you can't record one sample with the sound of, 'this one sucks'....because it will suck to the listener.

That's how the brain works. Come on now. Use the same excitement in all the samples...

Albeit, with a 'pro' mastering setup the differences may be more apparent.

I think I liked the home etch too...but again...did you speak really nicely into that one? lol

Making sure not to overload anything, etc.