Another pillar of the Deep State Conspiracy crumbles

[Recording Engineer]

The expected response...

JR

Both hodad and Matador wrote exactly my thoughts before I had a chance, as I see you expected these responses... Glad we’re all on the same page! Ha! You expected because if you actually continue with reasonable logic instead of stopping with what’s being fed and your own biases, that’s where you end up.

 

[hodad]

So it's worth noting that, beyond the criminals pardoned by Trump, there were those who never even lost their jobs (Kellyanne Conway, Hatch Act violator in chief), there were those never charged (Ryan Zinke of the Whitefish Energy scam), those charged with lesser offenses (let's not forget that Flynn conspired to kidnap a Turkish cleric who was residing here in the US), and those who got off with a slap on the wrist as well (Pappadapoulos comes to mind). 

Maybe the problem isn't that Trump's people are treated unfairly.  Maybe it's just that they're a bunch of criminal scumbags.  There's plenty of evidence to support that theory, so maybe it's the one we should go with. 

 

[kambo]

...
Maybe the problem isn't that Trump's people are treated unfairly.  Maybe it's just that they're a bunch of criminal scumbags.  There's plenty of evidence to support that theory, so maybe it's the one we should go with.

i am not trying to defend trmp's pardons, but its very interesting ....
search for coca from the pdf docs...  :
how many dealers, criminals, frauds, laundering etc etc etc

EDIT: I got a better link for all presidents
https://www.justice.gov/pardon/clemencyrecipients

 

[hodad]

I don't care that Trump pardoned bootleggers--that's fine with me.  It has a lot more to do with his pardons of the people who were doing crimes in the White House (or on the campaign trail) in his service.  As far as I know, that's something no other president has done, and certainly not on that scale.

 

[gyraf]

..please guys - can this be done in a slightly more respectful tone..?

/Jakob E.

 

[JohnRoberts]

..please guys - can this be done in a slightly more respectful tone..?

/Jakob E.

nah this is the expected response... the modern substitute for informed discourse is to shout down people with views different than yours (cancel culture), using invective and pejorative to discourage engagement.

It is working, I only opened and read this post because I respect you.

JR

 

[hodad]

nah this is the expected response... the modern substitute for informed discourse is to shout down people with views different than yours (cancel culture), using invective and pejorative to discourage engagement.

JR

Cancel culture?  You mean the trend in right wing media that's been going on for 25 years of attacking and belittling those who disagree with you?  You mean calling folks names like "snowflake" and "libtard?"  You mean inventing straw-man attacks like "the war on Christmas" to gin up confilct where none exists?  Do you mean a president who attacks those not on his side as "nasty" or "sleepy" or "little," or any of an endless series of insults or personal attacks? 

 

[fazer]

Speech and Sedition.  It’s not the first time this has been tried and won’t be the last.

Which takes us back to the Federalists’ 18th-century Sedition Act against “false” political speech—which they believed was needed to save the country from domestic enemies. The noted American historian Gordon Wood told the Journal in a 2018 interview that “the Federalists never thought that they were a party. They were the government.” Opposition to the government was naturally seditious.

Today’s liberal elite swoon over [Alexander] “Hamilton,” who supported the Sedition Act, and perhaps they’re becoming the arch-Federalists of the current political era. Today the press, prominent CEOs and all elected branches of government also find themselves in closer political alignment than at any time in decades. The liberal temptation to define their point of view as the only legitimate one—to view themselves as “the government,” rather than one of two parties—is growing stronger.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/speech-and-sedition-in-2021-11611962910?

 

[hodad]

Speech and Sedition.  It’s not the first time this has been tried and won’t be the last.

Yeah, and Trump wanted to change Section 230 till he got his azz kicked off social media.

I really can't read the WSJ op-ed page--that's way too deep in the right wing fever swamp for me--but at a glance it seems to be calling out columnists calling for an advertising boycott of Fox News (gosh, no one on the right--or left!--has ever called for an advertising boycott before!  Calumny!!), and starts by attacking a guest column at the WaPo, by a scholar from Notre Dame, the school that also brought you Amy Coney Barrett. 

And apparently, lying is always okay, and if our politicians lie (the right wing ones), it's not just okay, it's patriotic!!!  And if those lies encourage a band of ragtag nutters to attempt to assassinate Demonrat politicians, well that's American politics at its best!!!!

Or something. 

Oh, yeah--and it's wrong--wrong, I tell you!!!--to expect a self-identified "news" organization to even pretend to uphold any journalistic standards.  Unamerican!!!

(Do you suppose the editors were hyperventilating with righteous indignation as they wrote that folderol?  It certainly reads that way.  I bet they passed out as they wrote the last sentence.)

 

[kambo]

And apparently, lying is always okay,

regardless of your political view
if you are not good at lying, you can not be a politician!

 

[fazer]

And apparently, lying is always okay, and if our politicians lie (the right wing ones),

Oh yes you mean AOC who wasn’t even in the capital building during the riot but across the street with no one breaking into her building but reports fake news report about people threatening her .  I guess she must be right wing.  So much for truth on the left.

Also Hodad your guilty of what you accuse the right of.  You only read what supports your narrative.  Like me as well but I’m trying to change that.  We’re not all crazy but maybe you found a part time jive with the Democratic Party in these times of nonessential occupations.

By the way the article documents something that happened in the 1790’s not current but illustrates the same kind of cancel culture wanting home domestic terror from the  intelligence agency against its own people? 

It’s the McCarthy era 2021.  Bad bad idea.

That will create real terror and things like Texas secede from the Union first (which has the right to do so) and Florida following.  Civil war is not the direction I’m moving in but condemnation of 100million people will get you what you seem to want.

 

[rob_gould]

And apparently, lying is always okay, and if our politicians lie (the right wing ones),

Oh yes you mean AOC who wasn’t even in the capital building during the riot but across the street with no one breaking into her building but reports fake news report about people threatening her .  I guess she must be right wing.  So much for truth on the left.

https://www.truthorfiction.com/was-aoc-not-in-the-capitol-during-riots-on-january-6-2021/

what do you make of that ^^^ ?

 

[fazer]

what do you make of that ^^^ ?

Her office is across the street and not in the capital building.  It is part of the complex connected by tunnels under the street that the rioters never made it to.  So part of the building but in the building.   

Anyway 

Fact checkers are also bending the truth.  It’s pretty much it’s own propaganda.  And is a tool as much as a service and opinion multipler. 

But AOC. Will have an acting career if this political drama doesn’t workout for her. 

Speech and Sedition is a dangerous line of thought when 100 million people disagree with a point of view.  I hope this double Down bluff folds

 

[fazer]

Did anybody read the WSJ peace?  No ?  Whatever.

 

[hodad]

Also Hodad your guilty of what you accuse the right of.  You only read what supports your narrative. 
It’s the McCarthy era 2021.  Bad bad idea.

That will create real terror and things like Texas secede from the Union first (which has the right to do so) and Florida following. 

#1.  I admit I spend more time reading non-conservative material than conservative stuff.  But I do in fact read quite a few conservative columnists (most are admittedly not Trump supporters) and for years listened to more than my fair share of right wing talk radio, but generally speaking the WSJ op-ed page is a bridge too far.  I've read it before--still as crazy as it was 20 years ago.

#2.  It's not the McCarthy era 2021.  Nothing happened to the right wing kooks until they attacked the Capitol.  People believed all that crazy stuff (and continue to) without fear of govt. retribution.  But when you plot to engage in a terrorist attack on the seat of govt., there will be consequences.

If you want to find a more interesting parallel, take a look at the reaction of Southern racists to Reconstruction.  There's some really ugly mob violence there, and the behavior and causes have a lot more in common with the crazy people of today.  I would argue that the damage done by conceding to those racists has helped to lead us to our current troubles, some 150+ years later. 

#3.  I think you might be surprised at what Texas might do.  I guess it's possible they might secede (I don't see Florida doing so--where would the Social Security checks come from?), but Texas is a lot more purple than you might think.  Kenedy County would probably be thrilled to secede, but I think it'd struggle to drag along Austin, Houston, or even Dallas. 

#3a.  Trump showed me a lot about what leadership, or lack thereof, can do.  His racism and hostility gave permission to a certain subset of his followers to indulge in the same, and to let their darkest inclinations, paranoias and prejudices rule them.  That's leadership of a sort.  But Trump also refused to wear a mask or promote mask wearing.  This apparently was as much political calculation as anything--about votes instead of health and safety of voters.  This was a failure of leadership, and it has cost thousands of lives (and likely also cost Trump the election.) 
Which is a very roundabout way to get to the fact that there is now someone in the White House who is very much interested in governing and in leading. He's also not someone who shies away from taking responsibility for his actions. 
While Biden is not some sort of saint or savior, he is at the very least competent, and much more typical of what we've come to expect of a president.  I think in time more and more folks will recognize this and start to walk away from Trump's Crazytown.  It takes a lot of effort to keep that house of lies from falling, and I do think there are quite a few people who will get tired of trying so hard to hold it together.

 

[hodad]

Did anybody read the WSJ peace?  No ?  Whatever.

I skimmed it.  It seemed like breathless overreaction.  I don't think calling for a boycott of Fox News is anything horribly dangerous--far less dangerous than the lies Fox spreads under the misnomer "journalism."

I think Amazon was well within its legal rights to shut down Parler's web hosting--and if they'd been hosting a forum frequented by al Qaeda in 2001, I think the WSJ would have absolutely insisted that Amazon was doing the right thing.  Parler itself left Amazon an opening as wide as the Grand Canyon to shut them down. 

So that's the bulk of the case that WSJ built its argument on (plus that WaPo guest editorial--WaPo has a couple of hardcore Trump sycophants on staff, and so what?), and it's pretty much a load of overhyped bunkum, so why should I care what conclusions they draw?   

 

[fazer]

Well thought out Hodad.  And many points are undisputed.  I do t miss the crazy tweets from Trump all day long. 

I’m weary of 150 to 300 people becoming associated with 150,000 people that were peaceful and many seeing the damage that a small group did.

  Anyway I hear re-educate people you dis agree with as  a severe overreaching ideology. 

  The Democrat-Republicans were considered to be terrorist by the federalist back in the 1790’s.

The federalists was the government and didn’t think of itself as a party.  The reconstruction  was a failure due to Democrats From the south not Republicans.  But you always brand Dems as saints and repubs as the devil.  I hope you can see the difference in a blanket statement.

It’s your party’s time and not mine and I can survive nicely with that due to working a Successful lifetime financially.  But please dont try to re-educate me.  I have no plans of discriminating against people and am Sorry if you have been discriminated against. 

  I’m just not ready to follow the patriot act with a national terrorist act against its own citizens.  God save us all .  I know from past post by you that you believe in that or use to.  (God that is) 

 

[hodad]

  Anyway I hear re-educate people

How about just educate people?  I think that was a lot of the motivation of the BLM protests lastsummer.  It's often easy for white Americans to acknowledge superficially that there are issues of race in this country, but it's a lot harder to really, really face these issues and the ingrained biases that most of us carry inside us and are not always cognizant of.  Understanding that white privilege is a thing, and not a good thing. This is the sort of problem that spans left, center, and right, and it's not something you solve in a day or a week. 

      The reconstruction  was a failure due to Democrats From the south not Republicans.  But you always brand Dems as saints and repubs as the devil. 

The modern Republicans are not the same animal as the party of Lincoln (or Teddy Roosevelt--but they have a good bit in common with McKinley).  I don't brand Dems as saints.  There are many whose tactics I don't like, and many I simply don't agree with at times.  I'm actually very impressed with Republicans like Justin Amash & Adam Kinzinger--I don't always agree with them, but I think their approach is more what I'd like the GOP to be (not that anyone cares about my opinion on that!) 

The failure of reconstruction was at least in part that the govt. (not worried about party blame in this case) gave in to a band of racist jerks who wanted to continue denying African Americans full participation in American society and government.  That capitulation led to the rise of the KKK, lynchings, Jim Crow laws, housing and employment discrimination, etc.  That continuing thread of racism and white resentment is a part of what feeds the Trumpist movement (or right wing populism, if you wish to leave Trump out of it.) 

The early Republicans opposed slavery and wanted to bring liberty to people who were denied it.  The crowd supporting Trump?  As I said, they have much more in common with unreconstructed Confederates than they do with Lincoln. 

  But please dont try to re-educate me.

Don't worry--I'm not going to put you in a camp and make you recite from Mao's Little Red Book.  But I do know enough about right wing media (specifically propaganda outlets like Fox News, OAN, and talk radio) to know that there are a lot of people who believe a lot of these outlets' "news" stories that simply isn't true.  And yes,  I know that can be the case with left, right and center media, but the right has made propaganda and lies a specialty for  some time now (you could dig up my many comments about Rove & the "reality-based community" if you were interested[I won't go over that yet again here]--I think Rove captured the GOP's untethering from truth rather well.)  I worry less about people agreeing with me than I do in them persisting with utterly disproven lies.  For example:  Trump's election fraud BS has been debunked 9 ways to Sunday--by Republicans, Democrats, and whoever--so why should anyone who continues to propagate those lies be given any credence at all? 

I'm tired of writing & I'm sure everyone's stopped reading this by now, so I'll give it a rest.

 

[fazer]

Amen Brother.

 

[kambo]

Amen Brother.

+1

phew  ;D ;D ;D