Any notable differences between mic-parts and poctop's boards?

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*Nat*

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4
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Generally speaking, as a noob to the mic building process, would there be any discernible reason to go with a pcb from either mic-parts.com or poctop for a diy build? Can anyone speak to any differences between the boards offered by each? Is one more "true to form" than the other?

I have a few circuits in mind that I am currently in the process of narrowing down which one I want to build, but I am torn on where to eventually order the pcb from. Are there any notable differences between the boards offered by these companies in terms of sound quality of the final product?

Say, for example, I wanted to build either a flat k47 or M7 build on a transformerless circuit. How would one go about choosing which company to go with for the pcb for this circuit? Am I maybe just worrying about a detail that won't actually matter in the end? Any help is appreciated!
 
If you want to go for the more historically correct circuits, go with poctops PCB. MicParts are a more modern take on most of the classis circuits, AFAIK. Can't go wrong either way, but if you're new to the game, micparts provides very clear build documentation.
 
Poctop are much more DIY. You do need to have some experience because although the documentation and support are very good and lots of info is here, it’s not a “kit” and it’s often up to you what parts you want to use. No one will hold your hand like Micparts guy will, and he has detailed pictoral guides and great email support if you get stuck. I greatly prefer selecting my own parts and deciding what I want to put into my mics and how I want to do the builds, though, so I usually use Dany’s/Poctop’s boards. Oh and one final note is none of these tube clones are totally historically accurate anymore- The original tubes are all obsolete. Good news is wonderful folks like Oliver Archut and Dany have worked hard to make substitute circuits & tube choices available to the DIY community that are close to the originals, and many Telefunken & other high quality new old stock tubes, capacitors, capsules, and modern high quality transformers can be purchased and adapted to these designs, so in a way you can still make authentic high quality clones that stand with the best mics ever made. When I finished my M49 and 47fets last year I couldn’t believe they were DIY mics when I first heard them. Have fun.
 
Appreciate the responses! Interesting to learn about the different approaches to mic design taken by each. This was exactly the type of info I was hoping to find, so I can at least make a more informed choice for my build rather than just picking something blindly without fully understanding what I just bought 🤣. So thank you for the comments. We're lucky to have both options available I'd say!
 
Yes, we're pretty spoiled atm when it comes to building DIY version of the classic mics. High quality PCBs, bodies, transformers and capsules are relatively easy to come by these days, at least in my perception. Getting good quality tubes might be a little more difficult, but definitely not impossible.
 
Hi *Nat*
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The best cheap microphone Kit is a complete microphone.
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If you are a beginner in the construction of microphones, my advice is to buy a microphone as cheap as possible, used, functional or defective, with through-hole parts, I would say with a large diaphragm, there is more space inside for modifications, possibly with a transformer, (if you decide for another topology, you can give up the transformer). Anything from the MXL, Alctron, T.bone, CAD, etc. (which often share the same principle scheme). Thus you have a donor body, specific components for the microphone, as much as selected, capsule, etc. You can thus experiment, modify, or build something else from scratch, with minimal financial efforts.
You'll learn a lot more about microphone construction and come out a lot cheaper. Some of us spent so much on experiments that we could buy many expensive original microphones.
My 2 cents.
 
Generally speaking, as a noob to the mic building process, would there be any discernible reason to go with a pcb from either mic-parts.com or poctop for a diy build? Can anyone speak to any differences between the boards offered by each? Is one more "true to form" than the other?

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And yet, why do you have to use the current PCB? Many vintage equipment uses the point to point method, (without the problems of contamination of high impedance areas for example)
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In the picture, a small dc/dc converter to increase the polarization voltage of the capsule (stock is about 34v) to 60...63v.
Point to point construction, (my favorite method for decades, since I was building antenna amplifiers and satellite receivers)
In the end, I will probably shield it completely, since it is an approximately 2MHz oscillator, so that it does not emit radio interferences.
 

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If you’re a newb and don’t have a ton of parts stock, haven’t developed a preference for part types or sources, and aren’t yet comfortable with doing some level of fabrication and/or fundamental troubleshooting and understanding of mic circuits than I would unquestionably say go Mic Parts.

I’ve been at electronics in some form since i was like 10 years old. I started touring as a tech when I was 15. I also do teaching and training to people of all skill levels- so i’m not talking out my arse when I say the following:

Mic Parts have one of the best documented and organized DIY kits in the business. And they supply excellent quality components, and very good capsules. You are nearly certain to succeed your first time if you have competent soldering skills and can read. And you will have a very good sounding and useful mic regardless of which model you choose.

Poctop’s boards are excellent quality as are the capsules. BOM’s are provided but in some cases there may be multiple BOMs for a mic depending on the variants and some of the supplier cart links may have non stock components. You will need to be comfortable sourcing alternatives for obsolete part numbers or non stock items, as well as sourcing a capsule (if you don’t use his or want something different) a mic body, transformer, and likely have to fabricate or modify some mechanical parts to mount your finished PCbs and capsules depending on the mic body you get.

In the end you will also end up with an excellent sounding and useful mic- but there are far more pitfalls and potential areas to make costly mistakes or missteps with fewer clearly documented resources to help you through. It wouldn’t personally be where i would recommend getting your feet wet.

My vote- without knowing your exact experience and comfort level- would absolutely be MicParts. No matter what level you’re at, you’ll get a fun and easy build experience and a very good mic at the end of it.
 
I started with Dany's U87 boards when I got back into DIY 6 years ago. But I have been doing electronics with my dad in one for or another since I was 8 or 9.

If you're not comfortable with a scratch build go with Mic Parts. If you think you can handle more of a scratch build do the Dany build. Read the looong thread up here about the D87 so you will know what you're going to run into, and any parts you need help finding replacements for, just ask here and we will help the best we can.
 
Say, for example, I wanted to build either a flat k47 or M7 build on a transformerless circuit.
I agree with what everyone has said and will add my endorsement for both. I also have been an electronics technician in one form or another since i was a kid, but my first DIY microphone was a kit from microphone-parts for all the reasons already mentioned. Once you build one, however, much like luthiery, it quickly becomes an addiction and you will want to build more. Then it is time to start to explore poctop's offerings, as well as modding inexpensive mics and such. There are options there that you won't find at microphone-parts, but be prepared to dig through these forums for questions and source your own parts. Not a big deal, but I still recommend microphone-parts for a first-time build.
 
I am torn on where to eventually order the pcb from.

While I am an avid DIY guy, I have an alternative take on kits.

My recommendation: Go for the gusto and build something from scratch,
or as close to scratch as you can manage. Go for Proctop's boards and source
the parts yourself. You will learn more and derive more joy from the process
than merely assembling and soldering a prefab kit.

Here's the pitch:

I enjoy building my own audio and radio gear, even simple low cost, low tech gadgets, enjoying that heady sense of self-satisfaction one gets completing a successful home brewed project. And yet, many kits just prefab puzzles. Consequently, I have reservations about most kits.

Purportedly, the "best" kit experience is to (merely) assemble a basic kit comprised of vendor-selected through-hole components following super easy instructions. Not only is there little challenge in doing that, the builder usually learns very little about electronics, in general, and how or why the finished device works, in particular. In many cases, the kit costs substantially more than an equivalent performance commercially manufactured product. The builder is given a choice of just 1 set of components, and he typically learns nothing about what they do in the finished circuit. He typically learns nothing about alternative options. Often, the kit builder can easily source equivalent components on his own at a substantially lower cost than the bundle of vendor-supplied parts.

To (almost) paraphrase Shakespeare, “The prize be light, lest the winning be easy.” If the project is easy to build in a short time, the builder will derive little satisfaction from the process. He will be disappointed if the finished item does not represent good value for the time and money spent, compared to commercially available alternatives.

While it may seem daunting at first blush, an enterprising novice can easily source high quality bare circuit boards and other components from numerous local, online and mail order vendors. Ordering parts from online parts vendors is really EASY. In many cases, online vendors already have a Bill of Materials for others to use, which greatly simplifies the ordering process. If a novice cannot figure out how to order resistors, capacitors, and inductors on eBay or from www.Mouser.com and other online vendors, he should … well ... let's just say he CAN do it if he spends an hour or two researching how it works. And, if he is unwilling to devote a few hours to the project, he may not be serious about DIY projects.

While many kits produce a good result, they are not always better than equivalent finished goods. There is a direct parallel in amateur radio. A gazillion older hams fondly recall the fun they had assembling a Heathkit transceiver and the sense of pride they felt because it actually worked. And yet, while they are not bad rigs, they are not great rigs, either, easily outpaced by commercially finished gear that cost the same or, in some cases, much less. Nevertheless, those rigs are cherished by their builders. BUT, they actually learned precious little about electronics or how their radios work.

By analogy, building a desktop computer is, essentially, just a big puzzle comprised of separate finished components. One does not learn how computers work by plugging memory sticks, graphics cards, and sound cards, into keyed one-way connectors on the motherboard. The only tricky bit is using the right amount of thermal paste on the CPU cooler without gumming up the motherboard or exposing the builder to toxic goo.

Building many radio and audio kits taught me very little about electronics. I soldered all the parts in place and prayed it would work as promised. I progressed only by conceiving and building little circuits from scratch with guidance from an expert, who designed equipment for NASA and the Air Force, looking over my shoulder. He directed me to sources of information where I could learn why I was doing what I was doing. There are numerous similarly qualified and equally helpful experts in this group willing to coach and direct the serious novice through the process. I have learned much from these experts.

I DO NOT intend to dampen the OP’s enthusiasm or dissuade him from building any kit from any source he likes. I DO encourage him to be adventurous and go for the gusto, perhaps tackling one of Poctop’s boards. Perhaps he should research many kits and online project reports and see what others have done before, instead of building the first kit he comes across. Perhaps he could start with other basic, low cost projects and get his feet wet before spending a large sum on a microphone kit that may produce a mediocre result with a high cost-to-benefit ratio. For example, I purchased a promising circuit board from a feller in the UK for around $10. He includes a Bill of Materials that can be sourced from leading online vendors with modest effort. His instructions explain how the circuit works and proffers alternative configurations. I will learn more from this effort, and have a comparatively better microphone for much lower (relative) cost, than building a kit from MicParts.com.

Shoot. Anyone can order 25 to 30 resisters, capacitors, and a transistor from online vendors. Kit sellers charge a premium for gathering and putting all the parts in a small plastic bag. And, while I do not begrudge the kit seller the right to charge a margin and earn a profit, I am confident a motivated novice can figure it out, deriving greater satisfaction while saving some of his hard earned brass for other projects.

Kits are often more expensive than purchasing components separately at retail. Try this example on for size: JLI Electronics sells complete, essentially prefab microphone kits, which cost substantially more than the sum of their components at retail – not to mention even more than at wholesale. JLI Electronics sells everything in the kit (except the mic body) separately at retail for around $60. A $30 donor body, pushes the finished cost of components to around $90, while the kit costs a whopping $199.95. While I never begrudge a seller a reasonable margin and a bit more as profit – I can purchase all of the components from HIM at retail, assuring him a reasonable margin and profit, for whopping $110 less than his kit – I hope I am clear about this, he sells the same stuff for a profit for less than half the cost of the kit. Hmmm … I wonder which course one should take? Buy the kit for $200 or buy the parts for $90 from the same guy, and end up with the same microphone?!?! Gee … that is a tough one to call.

Again, I urge the OP to go for the gusto building his next microphone.

I recently purchased a pair of suitable donor bodies on eBay for $25 and $30, respectively. If I order the internal board, capsule, and other bits from JLI, my finished microphone using exactly the same parts as in the kit will sound essentially the same as the kit mic for less than half the cost of the kit, AND I WILL LEARN NO MORE AND NO LESS about electronics either way.

So, perhaps ordering the bits and finishing Danny’s Proctop board is the better course for the enterprising novice mic builder. I won’t even mention my skepticism concerning the source and quality of certain kit capsules sold online for what I consider high prices …

Or, perhaps the novice builder should start with other basic projects and work up to a more complex microphone build later, which may be custom cut and include higher quality components which are better suited to his personal needs and objectives, all depending on his personal predilections, threshold for economic pain and degree of difficulty.

Notice: I do NOT intend to rain on anyone’s kit building parade. I am merely expressing my personal pragmatic, empirical observations after building a lot of kits, leaving me somewhat cynical and disenchanted with the typical kit building process. I challenge the novice to dig deeper, and work harder, than just soldering a bunch of through-hole components to a circuit board without learning what and why they do what they do and how it all works.

This is, of course, just MY take – your mileage may differ. James
 
I am not arguing against MicMaven's excellent points. I believe every word he has written. My view is slightly different.

My main question is why are you building the microphone? For me the answer is always: I may enjoy the experience; I can't afford more; I want to record music. When I taught students at Webster University in Audio Production, I made sure we built equipment. Everyone should have that experience at least once. It builds knowledge and a certain kind of independence. But mainly -- I want to record music.

While I could source parts and have the "whole builder experience," I don't build often enough to feel comfortable hunting down parts, dealing with the frustration of parts out of stock or no longer made. I don't want to figure out how wires should be run. I want to record music. And the sooner I get there, the better.

I will never design my own circuit board. I will never reverse-engineer something. The most I will do is build a simple kit or try to modify something already made by substituting a part or two. I am a recording engineer.

For me a kit has been the answer. Are they more expensive than hunting down the parts yourself, etc.? Yes, but that's OK. I want a clear path. I want the project made easy. I want to use the gear as soon as possible with as little hassle as possible. I want to record music.

Why are the kits so expensive? Is it because of the parts cost? No. It is because of the inherent hassle the kit-designer experiences. Different levels of builder experience cause the kit-designer a lot of time offering advice, correcting builder mistakes, hand-holding, etc. That is where the kit costs are -- manufacturer "wear and tear." If you know what you're doing then do it without a kit if you'd like. But also, don't steal from the kit-designer. Don't take their BOM and just use it. That is their "intellectual property" -- their investment in figuring things out for you so you can have something to be proud of. Give them their due if you benefit from something they've done by supporting them financially, otherwise do it ALL on your own.

TL/DR: DIY comes in various flavors and it comes down to your ultimate goals. Some want to build, some want to build and use, some want to use. I'm the last kind. I tend to be a poor and often reluctant DIY'er. If I do it, it is out of necessity rather than desire, although I enjoy the people here and the knowledge gained. I support all the types of DIY. I'm probably just the worst kind.
 
Any help is appreciated!
*Nat*
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I also agree with McMaven and Barry Hufker. Either you want to learn more about building microphones, or you just want a decent and cheap microphone for recording, I repeat my advice: I don't recommend a microphone kit (it's expensive and sometimes doesn't deliver what it promises) but a used microphone as cheap as possible which you will turn into an excellent one with minimal expenses, with a little study, with the generous advice of the colleagues in the group, with a little work, enthusiasm and a lot, a lot of personal satisfaction.

https://groupdiy.com/threads/any-no...c-parts-and-poctops-boards.86379/post-1129498
 
Firstly, I am blown away by both the amount and quality of the responses I've received here to my noob-ish question. Not a single condescending response, and everything said has been genuinely helpful. So thank you for that.

I have taken the sum of all the advice here, and decided to build poctop's 847 FET circuit along with Ari's flat k47 for my first mic. I believe this will get me the most bang for my buck and I will end up with a pretty excellent first mic in the end. I'm still undecided on a mic body yet, but I just know I want to go with something that will take full advantage of the capsule and give it the best sounding response.

I plan on using Khron's more "streamlined" BOM for that build here:

https://groupdiy.com/threads/fet847...cb-layout-by-poctop.61057/page-10#post-844157
Many thanks to him for putting this together and sharing it. It definitely makes the project much more affordable, and there's no way I would have ever been able to come up with something similar on my own at my current skill level.

It's too bad there are some somewhat controversial aspects with that build though. That being the perhaps not fully optimized board layout making it more complicated than it needs to be, and the 6 minute charging time needed to get the mic up to full power. I'm half tempted to spend some time learning Eagle and create my own board using some of the "hints" contained in the build thread, but that also takes more time to figure out, when I kind of want to just start building. Hmm, decisions decisions...
 
Many thanks to him for putting this together and sharing it. It definitely makes the project much more affordable, and there's no way I would have ever been able to come up with something similar on my own at my current skill level.

I'm just a bit "allergic" to half-assedness, that's all. That, and some "OCD" / potential slight autism :LOL:

PS: If you wanna cheap out even further, you could even skip that isolation turret, and just have the JFET-gate/1G-resistor/capsule-wire joint in mid-air...
 
I hope I can provide a slightly different "greener" perspective from all the wisdom you have received. I have a bit of experience with building gear but I only first built a couple of mics recently.

I built a couple of the FET 847s for my first foray into the DIY microphone world. I think it was a good choice. I sourced components and hardware myself (that I didn't have at hand) but I have been building valve and transistor gear for a fair while now.

The FET 847s are probably the only PCB project I have had any success with. Turret boards, point to point or designing my own PCBs has worked much better for me. By designing my own layout, I feel I understand the circuit flow much better, and I like implementing my own grounding. It is much easier to toubleshoot and repair your own designs as well.

When I needed to (for a console I built) I just sat down at the computer and muddled my way through Eagle until I learnt how to prepare gerbers. Worth having a go at.

Microphones present a slightly different challenge to, for example, rack mounted gear due to the "packaging" for one thing. Not unexpectedly, there are a few that you can only learn about by actually building something. From my perspective, the screw sizes used in mics were one thing, spacing in the body another, the board rails and PCB dimensions, screw hole location in both the capsule mount and capsule, the circuit high impedance nodes, affixing the transformer, even the XLR socket (finding something that fits of decent quality, that isn't way overpriced). All different sorts of little challenges.

Building the FET 847 allowed me to better understand some of the things that need thinking about when building a mic. I think this sort of project sets you up well. For the next mic I build I feel confident to design a layout on a piece(s) of circuit board and use eyelets/turrents and a bit of lead knitting.

I don't build much gear anymore (9 channels of compression and 12 channels of EQ is probably enough) but if I do build anything it will be valve and ribbon mics. I have caught another addiction/affliction (mentioned by someone earlier in the thread), lutherie! Beware, it is even worse than audio electronics.
 
I likewise 100% agree with McMaven and Barry Hufker, and just wanted to add a little something about why I feel you typically don't/won't learn anything from building most of today's complete, ready-to-assemble kits (mic or otherwise). I think the core reason is simply that it often doesn't fit their business model. Mic Parts, for example, markets its kits to musicians who are complete neophytes when it comes to electronics, not to the DIY community. Their target customer base doesn't care about how it works, they just care that it does work. And, as noted, their kits are packaged and documented in such a way as to cater to said neophytes. Though by no means an electronics expert, I've done a serious amount of DIY-from-scratch in my lifetime, so building a couple of Mic Parts kits was pretty bland and mundane stuff to me. But, to a young guitar player who's never done anything more advanced than solder in pickups and pots, it would be a load of fun, and very rewarding and satisfying.

I also think that the reason why a lot of kit vendors don't document/explain the circuit operation, or even publish the schematic in the assembly manual, is because of the DIY community, who they fear will plagiarize and exploit it for profit, or at least replicate it for personal use instead of buying additional kits. I can understand such a fear as legitimate, as it's a well-known fact that both DIY and commercial electronics have been plagiarized for commercial gain, with entire companies having been built on plagiarized designs.

At any rate, I agree that you'll never get the satisfaction from building a kit that you get from learning electronics, designing your own circuits and PC boards, and then getting to use that completed something that was truly yours from the ground up. But, we all have to start somewhere, and building a kit while learning from other sources how the circuit works can be immensely rewarding for the newbie and a great way to get your feet wet. I certainly miss the kits from back when I was a kid, that had schematics annotated with highly detailed explainations of the circuit's function, a win-win for the newbie. Sigh...
 
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