Best PCB design tool?

[MidnightArrakis]

It's a bizarre theory, isn't it, that farting cows somehow melt the Polar icecaps and cause wildfires!

[It's a bizarre theory, isn't it, that farting cows somehow melt the Polar icecaps and cause wildfires!] -- YES, IT IS!!! But, it is STILL a rather fascinating one.....right???

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[gswan]

[zig-zag resistors] -- Just by the nature of the schematic symbol itself, an electron attempting to zip through a circuit in a schematic drawing meets up with this symbol it has to travel through that makes it swerve back and forth and back and forth, is going to -- impede or.....resist -- its speedy travel. Therefore, at least to me, the "zig-zag" symbol inherently makes more sense as to what its function is as an electrical symbol than what a rectangular box represents. To me.....a rectangular box could represent a "storage" device.....something that can hold something else. Much like a capacitor. SEE???.....

Zig-zag iconology as a "resistive element" is very much pre-CAD days thinking. Engineers and techs know what a resistor does, they don't have to be reminded by the symbol. A box is just fine, and you can put the value inside the box which makes the schematic neater and more compact. So long as the same symbol is not used for anything else (which it is not in the ISO standards). ISO is "international", not "European". A lot were derived from the British, French and German standards (this was before EU). USA uses ANSI, which is fine, so long as there is a standard that everyone understands. Think of it like Metric vs Imperial. It's not a contest, it's a standard.

 

[MidnightArrakis]

It's not a contest, it's a standard.

[It's not a contest, it's a standard] -- You should read an article I once read that's called, "Standard!?!? What standard"?

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[Cqwet Dbdfte]

Convention, not a "standard" ?

 

[Vetsen]

I really like Diptrace, I use it at home. I find it easy to use and powerful enough for most applications. It’s a great tool for both hobby use and professional use. At work I enjoy using Altium.

When designing PCBs, get used to making your own parts (symbols & footprints) although the online generators are pretty good. And get used to learning how to layout a board by hand. Altium has made quite a few tools to make the manual process easier. They call it Activerouter.

I use push and shove more than anything else. More than 99% of my work is manual hand routing. It will be interesting to see how long it takes AI to replace me.

Vetsen

 

[MidnightArrakis]

I really like Diptrace, I use it at home. I find it easy to use and powerful enough for most applications. It’s a great tool for both hobby use and professional use. At work I enjoy using Altium.

When designing PCBs, get used to making your own parts (symbols & footprints) although the online generators are pretty good. And get used to learning how to layout a board by hand. Altium has made quite a few tools to make the manual process easier. They call it Activerouter.

I use push and shove more than anything else. More than 99% of my work is manual hand routing. It will be interesting to see how long it takes AI to replace me.

Vetsen

[It will be interesting to see how long it takes AI to replace me] -- They're working on it!!! TRUST ME!!!

Back in the early 90's when CAD PCB-design programs were just beginning to take hold on a large-scale and companies were buying either the PADS PCB program or the Racal-Redac "CADSTAR" PCB program, almost all of the engineering managers -- firmly believed -- that us "PCB Designers" were >> WA-A-A-AAY << overpaid because they all thought that all we had to do was push a button on our keyboard and the board would be auto-routed in just a few minutes!!! Yeah.....right!!! Just try auto-routing a complex "RF" board with 50-Ohm controlled-impedance routing and see what you get!!! The "RF" engineers would flat-out reject it without question.

They kept hounding all of us with comments like, "Why is it taking you so long to complete this board"??? "Just push the auto-router button and get this board completed"!!! I hated all of those fvckers!!!

What I have never liked about ALTIUM is the fact that you can start routing a -- non-existent -- route anywhere in your design window, even outside the board-outline in blank space!!! However, the CADENCE/OrCAD "PCB Editor" program will -- ONLY -- let you begin a route by actually clicking on a rats-nest net. That's my preference.

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[ruffrecords]

Back in the 80s I ran a PCB layout group of about 5 people. |We used Cadence; we had a couple of Cadette (I think) Z80 based workstations and a Vax mainframe. Autorouting was done overnight on the Vax but it was never complete or even usable so we ended up routing everything by hand. Much quicker.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Newmarket]

-light is both a particle and a wave

Good post. But I have to pick up on this reference to Wave Particle Duality.
All physics deals in models. Light is Light. and this more widely applies to all electromagnetic radiation.
Some elements of its observed behaviour are explained by wave theory whilst others are explained by modelling it as particles (photons).

 

[Newmarket]

Yes, my bad, I strayed from the key point myself, sorry about that.

I agree that most "proper" ECAD software should (and do) offer integration. I would love it that my current program supported it. I might give KiCAD another look, I like the idea of an open source program. (I looked at it a number of years ago, and the UI wasn't very good, it didn't have good resolution and easy to switch grid, I like to change grid on the fly during layout)

Apologies for the dealy - been on hol etc - but just wanted to add that I have taken a look at Kicad as it gets quite a bit of love here and I like the CERN angle. But have to say it's not for me, I'm focussed on the schematic side and imo it just doesn't cut it compared to Orcad / Altium / Easy PC / Pulsonix / Proteus.
In a similar way I didn't like CADSTAR thirty years ago because the schematics looked as if made from Meccano

As it happens my current work uses CADSTAR but it's all done by the Drawing Office people. Looks fine now though and my ECAD guy hates the idea of Altium that the rest of the corporation uses !

 

[ruffrecords]

Apologies for the dealy - been on hol etc - but just wanted to add that I have taken a look at Kicad as it gets quite a bit of love here and I like the CERN angle. But have to say it's not for me, I'm focussed on the schematic side and imo it just doesn't cut it compared to Orcad / Altium / Easy PC / Pulsonix / Proteus.
In a similar way I didn't like CADSTAR thirty years ago because the schematics looked as if made from Meccano

That's how I feel about Eagle schematics.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Newmarket]

That's how I feel about Eagle schematics.

Cheers

Ian

Ha! I was pointed towards Eagle in a previous employment. Rejected that fairly quickly. The existing ECAD was Proteus that hadn't been maintained for about seven years. Ended up getting Pulsonix. And then never used it for any product due to firefighting previous issues rather than new product development.
Have to say Proteus support UK guy was very good especially as the company hadn't spent anything on it since around 2014
Joint worst outfit I've ever worked for tbh (not an audio business)

 

[MidnightArrakis]

I have taken a look at Kicad as it gets quite a bit of love here and I like the CERN angle. But have to say it's not for me, I'm focussed on the schematic side and imo it just doesn't cut it compared to Orcad / Altium / Easy PC / Pulsonix / Proteus.
In a similar way I didn't like CADSTAR thirty years ago because the schematics looked as if made from Meccano

As it happens my current work uses CADSTAR but it's all done by the Drawing Office people. Looks fine now though and my ECAD guy hates the idea of Altium that the rest of the corporation uses !

[I have taken a look at Kicad as it gets quite a bit of love here and I like the CERN angle] -- Of all of the CAD schematic programs you have listed, KiCAD is the only one that is actually easily affordable to use. I have ALTIUM Designer, CADENCE/OrCAD "PCB Editor" and KiCAD all installed on my CAD-workstation here-at-home and honestly, only KiCAD is the most functional -- AND -- the lowest-cost schematics program between those three. While my line of work is more geared towards the "corporate world", I installed the KiCAD program just so I could "communicate" with forum members on here and because it is a "new" program.

[But have to say it's not for me] -- Perhaps you should decide to spring for their series of "Training Videos". The last I checked, it cost USD $55.00 to enroll into. Should that price be too much for you, then.....there's these courses:







My first exposure to the CAD-world of electronic schematics and PCB-design was with the Racal-Redac (now ZUKEN) "CADSTAR" program back in 1986.....38-years ago!!! (In case you are unaware of the history of the "CADSTAR" software, it was originally a -- British -- CAD program and at one-point-in-time, practically every electronics company used it!!! Then, PADS-PCB came onto the market). I never had any issues and/or problems with either the schematics or the PCB-design side of the program. I even became good enough with understanding the internal file-structure of a completed PCB, that when a file had become corrupted for whatever reason, I could bring the board-file up in an ASCII-editor, review the code, could recognize a piece of code that was incorrect and correct it, save the edited file and end up with a now working PCB-file!!!

[the schematics looked as if made from Meccano] -- Does "Meccano = Mexico"??? I don't understand. In any case, I haven't used CADSTAR since I was introduced to the OrCAD software somewhere around 1990 or so. While the OrCAD software itself was OK, I haven't been too totally thrilled with it ever since CADENCE bought OrCAD in 1995 and "folded" the OrCAD schematics program and the MASSTECK "PCB Layout" program together to make what is now the CADENCE/OrCAD "PCB Editor" program what it is today. (OrCAD bought MASSTECK before CADENCE bought OrCAD and OrCAD bought MASSTECK because their PCB-design program was so superior to the -- AWFUL -- PCB-design program that OrCAD had developed)!!!

Hope this helps...............somehow!!!

/

 

[ccaudle]

Does "Meccano = Mexico"???

Think a modern version of Erector sets:
https://www.meccano.com/en_us

 

[Newmarket]

Think a modern version of Erector sets:
https://www.meccano.com/en_us

Yes. A metal based construction toy. In some ways an alternative/opposition to LEGO etc. I was/am LEGO myself.
Possibly like Blue Peter Vs Magpie

 

[ccaudle]

Just saw this in the Kicad 8.0 release notes, might be interesting if someone wants to design their schematics using a free tool, then get @MidnightArrakis to help design a high quality PCB:

"the schematic editor now supports exporting netlists in CadenceAllegro format"

https://www.kicad.org/blog/2024/02/Version-8.0.0-Released/

 

[Cqwet Dbdfte]

I downloaded EasyCAD pro, standalone, and then imported a pretty fat PCB file from Eagle, 6-layers, 7,000 odd
vias and pads. The import clobbered the various layers that make up final silk layers, it used the database pointers as silk text.
Dumb. It can probably be fixed.
Eagle has a 38 year history so these Easy guys has some catching up to do.
Besides these issues, the program ran slow as molasses.
Not a substitute for Eagle.
Next I'll try KiCAD. From what I've seen so far, it has very few layers. It also lacks automatic sync between schem and board.
Besides Eagles shortcomings it has 255 layers each in schem and board, useful for various things, production notes etc.

 

[MidnightArrakis]

Yes. A metal based construction toy. In some ways an alternative/opposition to LEGO etc. I was/am LEGO myself.
Possibly like Blue Peter Vs Magpie

This MECCANO would be similar to my "Erector Set" setup:



For those of you who are -- looking for and/or needing some -- heavy-duty project enclosures, there is this company that is located not too far from where I live >> PHOENIX MECANO <<, which is what I thought "Newmarket" may have been referring to, only misspelled:

https://www.phoenixmecano.com

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[zamproject]

Next I'll try KiCAD. From what I've seen so far, it has very few layers. It also lacks automatic sync between schem and board.

How many do you need ?!? KiCAD goes up to 32.
I usually do 2 side, happen do design a 4 side once, but I like setting up layers to 4 or 6 so I can flip some routing from one side to another by temporary using inner, and redefine board stack just before export and manufacturing.

 

[Cqwet Dbdfte]

How many do you need ?!? KiCAD goes up to 32.

Yes, but just copper layers. If you did a 32 layer copper board you would have a bigger budget that would include better CAD software. Have you priced a 32 layer blind/buried board lately?
Most of the 255 layers are not copper, only 16 or so, but they have built in and assignable functions.
Not that I promote EAGLE , you could DL the free version and check.
There are 8 layers just for silk, which can be switched on/off at the CAM stage,. Pads, holes, vias, drills, keepouts, have different "layers" that can be switched for clarity, or selective copying, among many.
KiCad has 72 plugins, Eagle has massive amount of "scripts" designed by users, for various tasks.
KiCAD has a long way to go to equal Eagle.

 

[zamproject]

Yes, but just copper layers.

Ha you talk about ALL layers ! sorry misunderstand
Yes KiCad is limited to about 8 user defined layers, but in conjunction with usual layer you have an -object- selector (for things using multiple layers like pads.)