Boston Bombing

[sr1200]

The boston PD apparently have made an arrest... details at 11.

 

[pucho812]

CNN reported the arrest, the rest CBS, etc  have not at this time.  Here is an article from USA today. So at best there is conflicting reports.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/17/boston-marathon-pressure-cooker-bomb/2089963/

 

[tchgtr]

  This happened on April 15th (tax day here in the US), and Patriots Day in Boston, and sure looks a lot like the bombing in Atlanta during the Olympics. At the same time Ricin is found in letters to the Pres, and a Congressman.
Doesn't sound like a terrorist from overseas to me, but I admit it's all just conjecture at this point.
There will be lots of video (and other) evidence on this and they will catch someone. There is a special hell made for cowards like this bomber. 
 
  I know I shouldn't continue the Iraq argument, as it has died down, but I have to point out the stupidity of taking a country that is 80% Shia, and turning it into a democracy, after deposing the much smaller Sunni population that we had previously backed up for a decade (picture of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand anyone?), and was forcefully holding the Shia in check. As soon as you give everyone an even vote, you have turned the country Shia, and basically annexed it to Iran. Good work, boys. Now you know why they want to attack Iran.
  Yes, Saddam was a bad man, but Iraq had previously been one of the most forward countries in the Middle East, where women were allowed to drive, own property, and go into public alone without covering their faces. They had many accomplished engineers, historians, and scientists who have since fled the country (or been eliminated) leaving it the mess it now is, much like all the other ultra-religious fiefdoms in the area. The Shock Doctrine.
  There were people like Scott Ritter and Hans Blix who were trying to tell us that here were no WMD, and I have yet to see anybody go back and thank those guys for trying to tell us the truth they were qualified to speak. They paid a high price for being so bold with such an unpopular message, as many people did during the Bush administration.
  They gave the CIA director an award after they blamed the whole mistake on them (also purposefully outing agents looking into nuclear materials), and sent him home. I never want to see our government like that again.
  You can try to explain it off any way you want, but that's what I remember, and not much will change my mind.
   

 

[DaveP]

tchgtr,
I agree with everything you said.  If they had put as much effort into understanding the dynamics of the society and the post-war planning, as they did looking into the WMD issue, then the invasion might have been ruled out as an option altogether.  Saddam did obstruct Hans Blix's team and tried to protect himself by giving an ambigous response as I recall and it must have been difficult to trust the assurances of a man who gasses 5000 of his own people in any case.

I have every sympathy for people who have to make tough choices where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.  We ignored Ruanda and 250,000 died and the perps went into the Congo to continue the carnage there to this day.  To say that all leaders are crazy psychopaths is just conspiracy garbage, infantile and facile.
DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

  This happened on April 15th (tax day here in the US), and Patriots Day in Boston, and sure looks a lot like the bombing in Atlanta during the Olympics. At the same time Ricin is found in letters to the Pres, and a Congressman.
Doesn't sound like a terrorist from overseas to me, but I admit it's all just conjecture at this point.
There will be lots of video (and other) evidence on this and they will catch someone. There is a special hell made for cowards like this bomber. 

perhaps coincidental.. I'll wait for some real data... The news is so busy trying to be first they are making sh__ up...

 

  I know I shouldn't continue the Iraq argument, as it has died down,

something like 25 bombings 61 killed, it hasn't quite died down for the Iraqi people.

but I have to point out the stupidity of taking a country that is 80% Shia, and turning it into a democracy,

Not stupid if it ends well...India a mostly stable democracy has an equally volatile mix of cultures.

The execution of the invasion was challenged to say the least, when (democratic) Turkey denied letting the US bring heavy armor in from the north. 

after deposing the much smaller Sunni population that we had previously backed up for a decade (picture of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand anyone?), and was forcefully holding the Shia in check. As soon as you give everyone an even vote, you have turned the country Shia,

The country was shia, we just let it be what it is.

and basically annexed it to Iran. Good work, boys.

We have nothing against the Iranian people who are also well educated and mostly rational. Actually some older iranians recall better times and relations. The current Iranian government that doesn't really represent the people is the odd man out. No wonder they are so aggressively pursing a nuclear weapon, (does that remind anybody else of N. korea?).

They must be having a hard time explaining that fledgling democrtacy just next door.  :-*  There is a lot of cross border traffic, religious pilgrimages to holy sites in Iraq. The citizen of Iran notice the difference between the new Iraq and the old Iraq.

Now you know why they want to attack Iran.

I think about the only people thinking of attacking Iran is israel because Iran keeps saying they plan to melt Tel Aviv. Sounds irrational to not attack Iran under that threat.

  Yes, Saddam was a bad man, but Iraq had previously been one of the most forward countries in the Middle East, where women were allowed to drive, own property, and go into public alone without covering their faces. They had many accomplished engineers, historians, and scientists who have since fled the country (or been eliminated) leaving it the mess it now is, much like all the other ultra-religious fiefdoms in the area. The Shock Doctrine.

The entire middle east was cosmopolitan and very advanced culturally, with major international trade, and rule of law. The current primitive throwbacks are not representative of that actual heritage. The Taliban is routinely destroying major works of ancient art that don't fit their narrow and fairly recent world view. 

  There were people like Scott Ritter and Hans Blix who were trying to tell us that here were no WMD, and I have yet to see anybody go back and thank those guys for trying to tell us the truth they were qualified to speak. They paid a high price for being so bold with such an unpopular message, as many people did during the Bush administration.

Saddam made a joke of the UN sanctions and oil for food program. Blix was getting a run around Like Iran is doing to UN inspectors today, and Saddam was most likely both pretending that he had WMD that he didn't, and planning to restart programs the second he was able.

  They gave the CIA director an award after they blamed the whole mistake on them (also purposefully outing agents looking into nuclear materials), and sent him home. I never want to see our government like that again.
  You can try to explain it off any way you want, but that's what I remember, and not much will change my mind.
 

Don't change for me...  8)

I'm very critical of our government but it is all relative and there is a long list of truly worse governments all around the world.

I had to change the channel because I couldn't sit through another tear jerker dog and pony show press conference to promote gun legislation that already failed in the senate. If they want to really address that Newtown tragedy then open up mental health records, stop the arm waving to "look like" you are doing something.

JR

 

[DaveP]

Well done to the Boston Police and FBI, amazing to get a result so soon.  Such a pity that it cost the life of a Policeman and almost the life of another.  No doubt we will find out why it all happened over the coming weeks.
DaveP

 

[DaveP]

Just heard that there is a demonstration of solidarity with Boston to take place in the London Marathon tomorrow.  There will be 30 seconds silence before the race, some running with black armbands and hand on the heart when they cross the line.
DaveP

 

[Dylan W]

The sense of relief felt right now in the city is unbelievable. Last night, everyone I know was glued to the police scanner feed. When the suspect's capture was announced, about 500 people poured onto the street and were cheering for 2 hours. Felt badly about celebrating, since it was not a victory so much as a conclusion to an awful week.

I live several blocks from the finish line and was headed over to see the runners when the bombs went off--thankfully no one I know was hurt. Also sending good thoughts to the victims of the TX explosion.

Dylan

 

[JohnRoberts]

Well done to the Boston Police and FBI, amazing to get a result so soon.  Such a pity that it cost the life of a Policeman and almost the life of another.  No doubt we will find out why it all happened over the coming weeks.
DaveP

Yes, while not solved in < 1 Hr including commercials like all the TV crime shows, they sorted through massive data and identified the perps in a timely fashion. I don't think the brothers expected to be identified so quickly. But intelligence is not a common trait for such individuals.  The cooperation and communication between different agencies was very much improved over past events.

Two police killed, while one was a campus cop, dead is dead so RIP and respect.
[correction] looks like one officer died (MIT campus police). The transit officer who was shot, bled out and his heart stopped, but he was resuscitated and is now in hospital in serious condition but recovering.  [/edit]
Perhaps it is just me, but I found the news coverage, intolerable. Glad it's over, but they'll keep milking it for a while longer. And politicians will try to shape this to fit whatever agenda they are pressing.

One talking head this morning was pondering post traumatic stress syndrome for the news watchers...  yup sign me up.

come on.... 

JR

PS: Good luck with London marathon, while they have been working on elevated security there for years and have the TV monitors more pervasively than Boson. I guess next step is machine monitoring of cameras for suspicious behavior, while that will take some special coding..

 

[DaveP]

What worries me now, is how this will appeal to a lot of teenage losers out there, I mean, out of state guys, national guard, FBI and entire Boston Police force, all for one 19 year old.  If you want someone to notice your miserable little life then that is the way to go...... out in a blaze of "glory".

Mind you, I think they had to use those resources as they had no idea what they were dealing with initially, there could have been a dozen of them.  Even these two jerks had a small arsenal between them, it is astonishing to us Brits how they got such weapons.
DaveP

 

[sodderboy]

Dave, it might also astonish you that you can build powerful explosives from supplies gathered at a few stops on high street.

What astonishes me is how the media has chosen yoga over running or interval training in their denial of the true source of the violence.  Further arrests and forensics of what our government agencies did NOT do in investigating possible planted terrorists will further prove that our heads are collectively in the sand.
Mike
PS: and to claim that Bush was finishing his Daddys business completely ignores the declarations of the UN and the international community, many of whom were actually in bed with Hussain as John already mentioned.  It really is indicative of how easily history gets dumbed-down and believed by the masses.

 

[pucho812]

so how long are they planning to hold the suspect before he is read his Miranda rights and officially charged with the crime/crimes?

what about due process?  Are they going to give him court time with a jury of is peers to judge him?

 

[DaveP]

Mike,
I'm a chemist by trade and because I know how risky it is to make explosives, it just surprises me how they manage to do it, a few degrees miscalalculation and it all goes up in your face.

I really hope the FBI were not running these guys, or some heads will roll.

As I said before in this thread, I think it was a mistake to let Saddam off the hook after the 91 war, he was never going to be contrite, he just went out and murdered 15,000 of his own people.  That was the UN's mistake and I think there were too many tyrants out there who did not want to set a precedent in case they were next.  But I can see where you are coming from, you think the UN is like the Bible, you can't pick and choose which bits you're going to believe in, I can accept that.
best
DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

so how long are they planning to hold the suspect before he is read his Miranda rights and officially charged with the crime/crimes?

what about due process?  Are they going to give him court time with a jury of is peers to judge him?

He has the right to remain silent for all eternity. I suspect if left to their fellow Bostonians (peers?) they'd get little mercy. At this point we don't need to discover Who, What, When, or Where.  Why could be useful to determine if there are more like them out there.

I suspect the immediate concern is to find out if there was another country involved in their apparent acts of terrorism. They emigrated here to escape a violent region of the world. (You can take the boy out of the country,,, etc).

Not your typical slackers.

I am not smart enough to second guess the authorities (well maybe close), and despite the wall to wall news coverage, I don't know what made these guys tick.  (pun not intended). Were they enemy combatants, or random crazies?

We need to move on... I need the news to stop re-running the live coverage they captured sometime last week, to keep everybody excited and telling us what to think. Stop milking this cow. I wish it was a rare isolated incident never to be repeated but the more celebrity they give these pukes, the more likely some copy-cat will emerge down the road.

JR

PS: If your are worried about due process for terrorists maybe we can add little speakers to the drones to read them their rights as they deliver the payload. I wouldn't mind an added layer of judicial review to that particular executive power. It's harder to get a wire tap than splat some puke (war time rules?). One comedian-philosopker opined that was why nobody claimed credit for the blast, afraid they'd get a drone up their tail pipe. Before the aggressive drone use there would be a half dozen radical groups claiming credit.

 

[sodderboy]

But I can see where you are coming from, you think the UN is like the Bible, you can't pick and choose which bits you're going to believe in, I can accept that.

So now we have gymnastics in the thread with that huge leap to the bible!  Burning bush or UN IAEA charter- in which do I have less belief?  Hmmm. . . .  If you trust in NGO rather than GOD, I can accept that.

Mike

 

[DaveP]

So now we have gymnastics in the thread with that huge leap to the bible!  Burning bush or UN IAEA charter- in which do I have less belief?  Hmmm. . . .  If you trust in NGO rather than GOD, I can accept that.
[/quote]

Its a metaphor Mike, a metaphor
But I'm a new testament man myself so NGO will do.
best
DaveP

 

[Andy Peters]

so how long are they planning to hold the suspect before he is read his Miranda rights

There's no such thing as "Miranda rights." The officer reads the "Miranda warning" to the arrestee. It is a reminder to both parties that the suspect has a 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination and a 6th Amendment right to counsel.

Those rights exist regardless of whether or not the officer reads the warning.

If the warning is not read, then any statement made by the suspect cannot be admitted as evidence against him. That's the limit of the recourse if he's compelled to make a statement without being "mirandized."

There has been some discussion about whether this case could clarify the various "exceptions" claimed by the government, since if it came down to where he was not read his rights AND he made incriminating statements AND those statements were entered into evidence AND he was convicted in part based on that evidence, then an appeals court could turn over the conviction -- he'd have standing to take the case to the Supremes.

Now here is the deal with this kid: the government has enough evidence to crucify him without an admission or statement from him of any kind. In a trial, it's likely that he'd never be called to the stand by the prosecution. So to the question of whether he was "mirandized," it's actually irrelevant.

What the government would like to do here is attempt to get any other information from him, perhaps about unknown co-conspirators, perhaps about the location of other bombs or booby traps. That information is not related to the prosecution for the crimes he's alleged to have committed. And it's also important to note that anything he gives up as part of that interrogation would be admissible. Say he fingered a third guy. The cops can go arrest the third guy based on that statement, and that action goes against nothing in the Constitution or the Miranda decision. Miranda is about self-incrimination, not about incriminating anyone else.

Having said all of that, if the kid recovers from his wounds to the point of being able to make a statement, he can still invoke his 5th and 6th Amendment rights at the outset and refuse to cooperate. There's nothing that the government can do legally to compel him to talk.

and officially charged with the crime/crimes?

Well, he's still gravely wounded and one doubts that they've been able to even talk to him, much less interrogate him. From the last articles I've read, though, the AG's office is determining exactly what he'll be charged with.

what about due process?  Are they going to give him court time with a jury of is peers to judge him?

As much as certain grandstanding jackasses on the right would prefer, yes, he will get a trial in Federal court, assuming of course that he doesn't plead out.

-a

 

[pucho812]

Andy,

Do I think he is guilty, yes. But what i think and feel is irrelevant. Allowing the gov or anyone else the right to skip, remove, ignore, etc anything related to charging any person with a crime sets a bad precedent. We are a country of laws and due process is just part of it.  I seriously doubt he will plead out and I doubt they will be talking with him anytime soon as he was shot in the throat.  As horrific as the events that happened in Boston are,  he is innocent until proven guilty, something I am sure will happen with ease.  But innocent until guilty is one of the many corner stones that make this country what it is.

 

[Andy Peters]

Andy,

Do I think he is guilty, yes. But what i think and feel is irrelevant. Allowing the gov or anyone else the right to skip, remove, ignore, etc anything related to charging any person with a crime sets a bad precedent. We are a country of laws and due process is just part of it.  I seriously doubt he will plead out and I doubt they will be talking with him anytime soon as he was shot in the throat.  As horrific as the events that happened in Boston are,  he is innocent until proven guilty, something I am sure will happen with ease.  But innocent until guilty is one of the many corner stones that make this country what it is.

FWIW, today he was both Mirandized and charged. They waited until he was awake and coherent enough to understand what he was being told. "Reading someone his rights" when he's sedated because he's gravely wounded doesn't make much sense, right?

So he is getting his due process, nothing was being ignored or skipped. I agree with everything you say about innocence and such. I just think that by reading and watching media reports, especially the gawd-awful cable news channels, you're not getting the real story. None of the talking heads made any mention of the fact that rights don't go away because the arresting cop didn't Mirandize the guy; instead, they just blathered on about "exceptions" and such.

-a

 

[tchgtr]

    The people of Boston deserve a huge round of applause for the way they handled this whole affair. I'm sorry it had to happen to anyone in the first place, but I'm very impressed with the way they dealt with this difficult situation from beginning to end. Marathon participants, government officials, regular citizens, and everyone else seem to have reacted in a conscious effort of single-minded resolve.
    It's the kind of response that would make anyone considering such an attack wonder if the effort was worthwhile.
    The media once again showed that they really have nothing to add and will cycle the same crap over and over again because they are afraid that going on to report any other news after they give the known information will lose them viewers. Nothing new there...but a lot of other important news went unreported while reporters blabbed on about nothing, or just plain got the facts wrong.
    The nut-job media attention-whores have shown they will do anything to sell survivalist supplies, and ramp up the paranoia in the believing faithful. Free speech has it's pitfalls, and this kind of propaganda is only believable when the mainstream media does such a poor job.
    Congress gets the Hall of Shame award for not even considering making it harder for terrorists to get weapons, barely days before this whole affair began.
  Boston Strong!