Brexit

[Matt Nolan]

I am not going to defend her but your view can change in 3 years. In that time Mr Cameron failed spectacularly to negotiate a better deal for us. If he had done so then the Brexit vote might have been rather different.

Cheers

Ian

I don't quite believe that I'm rising to the defence of David Cameron (if I were dead, I would be spinning in my grave) but, to be fair, he did negotiate a better deal:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/645777/EU-referendum-David-Cameron-Brexit-EU-deal-European-Union-Brussels-emergency-break-UK

Maybe not good enough for you and others, but better nonetheless. Your statement is misleading and inaccurate.

 

[ruffrecords]

I am not going to defend her but your view can change in 3 years. In that time Mr Cameron failed spectacularly to negotiate a better deal for us. If he had done so then the Brexit vote might have been rather different.

Cheers

Ian

I don't quite believe that I'm rising to the defence of David Cameron (if I were dead, I would be spinning in my grave) but, to be fair, he did negotiate a better deal:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/645777/EU-referendum-David-Cameron-Brexit-EU-deal-European-Union-Brussels-emergency-break-UK

Maybe not good enough for you and others, but better nonetheless. Your statement is misleading and inaccurate.

It was widely reported that many of the thing he said we was going to get he did not get and what he did get was well watered down. That is failure in my eyes.

Cheers

Ian

 

[[silent:arts]]

From the beginning the UK had extra deals with the EU.
It would have been wrong to commit to even more extra deals and privileges just to keep the UK in.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Here's another thing about politicians that really annoys me. There ae plans in the UK to introduce laws to force ISPs to record everyone's internet activity for reasons of 'national security'. At the last minute a cause was added that means MPs internet activity will NOT be  part of this. So the biggest bunch of con men and criminals is exempt from a law designed to catch con men and criminals.

Cheers

Ian

I don't know if this is related but I saw an article that how EU customer records data is kept-handled in a post Brexit UK could be a major issue.

JR

 

[kambo]

Here's another thing about politicians that really annoys me. There ae plans in the UK to introduce laws to force ISPs to record everyone's internet activity for reasons of 'national security'. At the last minute a cause was added that means MPs internet activity will NOT be  part of this. So the biggest bunch of con men and criminals is exempt from a law designed to catch con men and criminals.

Cheers

Ian

1+

 

[mattiasNYC]

Here's another thing about politicians that really annoys me. There ae plans in the UK to introduce laws to force ISPs to record everyone's internet activity for reasons of 'national security'. At the last minute a cause was added that means MPs internet activity will NOT be  part of this. So the biggest bunch of con men and criminals is exempt from a law designed to catch con men and criminals.

Cheers

Ian

This is the new normal though. It's all in the name of security and we all swallow it. Orwell would have been proud of his predictions and horrified at the same time. We certainly learn little from history and fiction.

 

[DaveP]

From the beginning the UK had extra deals with the EU.
It would have been wrong to commit to even more extra deals and privileges just to keep the UK in.

National characteristics are different, we are not all the same.  Trying to make all countries fit into the same box is at the heart of the EU problem.  It is not even necessary.

Would you have Riesling taste the same as Merlot?

Why not allow every country to decide who is allowed entry?  We didn't veto Germany letting in 1M migrants, your country has the room and need for younger citizens, the UK hasn't.

DaveP

 

[sahib]

Here's another thing about politicians that really annoys me. There ae plans in the UK to introduce laws to force ISPs to record everyone's internet activity for reasons of 'national security'. At the last minute a cause was added that means MPs internet activity will NOT be  part of this. So the biggest bunch of con men and criminals is exempt from a law designed to catch con men and criminals.

Cheers

Ian

Indeed it is  a stich-up.  But this is not some one banana republic. This is the country that produced Magna Carta. As people we certainly have the power to challenge that. The problem is that we are so turned off of politics that only a handful of people are now defending civil liberties. I don't remember who said it right now but it was in the lines of "politics is a much more serious matter to be left to politicians".

In that time Mr Cameron failed spectacularly to negotiate a better deal for us. If he had done so then the Brexit vote might have been rather different.

No doubt about that.
.........................................

If they were smart they would abandon the parts of the treaty that cause countries so much trouble.

DaveP

There is a saying in Turkish (it is actually rooted in Arabic but became  a catch phrase in modern Turkish)

"bagda harab-ul Basra"  meaning after Basra was devastated,  or  "too little too late".

 

[JohnRoberts]

I don't remember who said it right now but it was in the lines of "politics is a much more serious matter to be left to politicians".

Charles de Gaulle 

JR

 

[Andy Peters]

I am not going to defend her but your view can change in 3 years.

If the new view is one to your liking, it is called "evolution."

If the new view is the opposite, it is called "desertion" or worse.

 

[Whoops]

BREXIT Explained:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daB7np-RtOM&feature=youtu.be

 

[kambo]

BREXIT Explained:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daB7np-RtOM&feature=youtu.be

almost fell from my chair  ;D ;D ;D ;D
10+

 

[ruffrecords]

From the beginning the UK had extra deals with the EU.
It would have been wrong to commit to even more extra deals and privileges just to keep the UK in.

I think when we joined the Common Market 43 years ago there were no special deals. Only later when this morphed into the more all encompassing EU we know today did the UK demand exceptions.

Cheers

Ian

 

[DaveP]

Legal Process

"Kasra Nouroozi, a Mishcon de Reya partner, said: "We must ensure that the government follows the correct process to have legal certainty and protect the UK Constitution and the sovereignty of Parliament in these unprecedented circumstances.
"The result of the referendum is not in doubt, but we need a process that follows UK law to enact it.
"The outcome of the referendum itself is not legally binding and for the current or future prime minister to invoke Article 50 without the approval of Parliament is unlawful.
"We must make sure this is done properly for the benefit of all UK citizens. Article 50 simply cannot be invoked without a full debate and vote in Parliament."

It has come as a shock to many that the referendum result itself is not legally binding in UK law and it alone does not trigger the UK's departure from the EU.

From BBC this morning
DaveP

 

[Script]

Legal Process
[...]
It has come as a shock to many that the referendum result itself is not legally binding in UK law and it alone does not trigger the UK's departure from the EU.

What? The BBC is saying that there are people who didn't know that the referendum outcomes itself is not binding (yes, Parliament has to decide, of course)? I just refuse to believe that there are people who didn't know this.

 

[ruffrecords]

Legal Process
[...]
It has come as a shock to many that the referendum result itself is not legally binding in UK law and it alone does not trigger the UK's departure from the EU.

What? The BBC is saying that there are people who didn't know that the referendum outcomes itself is not binding (yes, Parliament has to decide, of course)? I just refuse to believe that there are people who didn't know this.

I did not know this. When you vote for a politician in a normal election you agree for him/her to implement their stated policies on your behalf.  Your defer you rights to them. A referendum is different. It is a vote by the people for the government to take a specific course of action. The government must then take the action voted for. If they do not then there is no point in the referendum.

Even if it is, in law, advisory, I find it very hard to believe that the politicians would want to risk the fallout if they did not vote it through parliament.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Script]

Even if it [i.e., the referendum] is, in law, advisory, I find it very hard to believe that the politicians would want to risk the fallout if they did not vote it through parliament.

That's a good point.

However, if both campaign sides did not communicate this most basic democratic fact about the referendum, I wonder what else both sides accidentally forgot to communicate.

Not being British, and having no stake in this entire thing, I wouldn't possibly know -- also because I had deliberately refrained from watching & reading too much campaigning propaganda (both sides), as I felt that overall there was way too much hysteria going on.

 

[thermionic]

They were placed in a flat at a taxpayer's expense of £1,000 a month rent. They stole from us and they stole from our downstairs neighbours. They run a havoc here.

Now before you take this and twist it round let me repeat again. I am not trying to tar everybody with that brush. I am giving it as an example of what can happen with unlimited and uncontrolled immigration.

What has the fact that they were immigrants got to do with it? I fail to see the connection between their criminal tendency and immigrant status. Every culture has its share of bad apples.

anybody who arrives on our door step should be entitled to full benefits.

That assertion is totally ad-hominem… Can you show me where I even mentioned benefits? Just because I’m pro-immigration, it doesn’t mean I think they should be entitled to benefits (I do think that refugees should).

 

[thermionic]

On Friday, I spoke with a couple of friends who were born here, and whose families have been living in the UK for 50 years. At no point in the previous 50 years, for either family, had they received racist abuse....

...In the last week both of them have.

Having known their type was persona-non-grata for many years, this vote has emboldened and brought the most ignorant, xenophobic thugs out of the woodwork. I've noticed it myself - the far right has a new-found confidence. In their minds the vote has made it acceptable.

This is the by far the most tragic political event to have occurred in the UK during my adult life. If Le Pen gets into power in France the whole union could fall apart... Well done, UK! Taking the data upon which to base your vote from Murdoch and Dacre, you've managed to potentially destroy the most important movement for peace of the last 50 years. Brits should be proud! 

 

[ruffrecords]

Even if it [i.e., the referendum] is, in law, advisory, I find it very hard to believe that the politicians would want to risk the fallout if they did not vote it through parliament.

That's a good point.

However, if both campaign sides did not communicate this most basic democratic fact about the referendum, I wonder what else both sides accidentally forgot to communicate.

Not being British, and having no stake in this entire thing, I wouldn't possibly know -- also because I had deliberately refrained from watching & reading too much campaigning propaganda (both sides), as I felt that overall there was way too much hysteria going on.

The government seems to be taking the view that the people have voted for Brexit so Brexit it will be. If people knew beforehand that the referendum was advisory then I suspect there would be an immediate call for a referendum to change the law so that the result IS binding in law because anything else is plain stupid. Both sides emphasised that this was the most important decision the populace was ever likely to be asked to make - given that, nobody is likely to ask if the government is going to ignore the outcome if they don't like it. Once again, any government that defies a referendum result immediately demonstrates that they are exactly the kind of self serving, we know best  hypocrites the public always thought they were.

Cheers

Ian