Brexit

[mattiasNYC]

these people that I mentioned who were placed next door to us. They were placed in a flat at a taxpayer's expense of £1,000 a month rent. They stole from us and they stole from our downstairs neighbours. They run a havoc here.

Now before you take this and twist it round let me repeat again. I am not trying to tar everybody with that brush. I am giving it as an example of what can happen with unlimited and uncontrolled immigration.

But the problem with what you're saying is that the same thing can happen without immigration as well. So it begs the question of why you have to point to crime in conjunction with immigration, if the two weren't connected somehow. Since all humans are humans and humans commit crimes it stands to reason that regardless of where people are from you'll be increasing the amount of crime in a population if the population grows as a result of immigration.  But as far as you're concerned; if your area will always be populated the odds will be about the same in terms of you suffering from crime. It won't matter who lives next to you.

Immigration is of course a good thing and I am an example of it. But I am a product of controlled immigration.

But the distinction between controlled and uncontrolled seems entirely arbitrary. The borders towards the EU are controlled as far as that's possible. Refugees are one thing, we've covered that, and immigration is a different thing. You can't just move from Nicaragua into the UK, can you? So immigration is in fact NOT uncontrolled. It IS controlled. The issue is whom is allowed in.  And it is also not unlimited.

Further more, you're saying this right after you're talking about immigrants having committed crimes, so the question that appears in my head is just what type of control, specifically, was applied in your immigration case that would have disqualified you from immigration had you been the type that committed crimes?

 

[DaveP]

But the distinction between controlled and uncontrolled seems entirely arbitrary. The borders towards the EU are controlled as far as that's possible. Refugees are one thing, we've covered that, and immigration is a different thing. You can't just move from Nicaragua into the UK, can you? So immigration is in fact NOT uncontrolled. It IS controlled. The issue is whom is allowed in.  And it is also not unlimited.

I think that this is the kind of thing that is being referred to:-
http://news.sky.com/story/1721494/alice-gross-coroner-calls-for-immigration-checks

DaveP

 

[DaveP]

You might like this sketch with Patrick Stewart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA

DaveP

 

[Script]

Both sides emphasised that this was the most important decision the populace was ever likely to be asked to make - given that, nobody is likely to ask if the government is going to ignore the outcome if they don't like it. Once again, any government that defies a referendum result immediately demonstrates that they are exactly the kind of self serving, we know best  hypocrites the public always thought they were.

I totally agree on the 'self-serving' aspect, especially with regrad to Cameron and Johnson -- and now, all of a sudden, Mr. Gove. Well, actually, in Mr. Gove's case, reading a few newspaper articles back in time, not altogether that surprising.

BTW, is the British PM elected by the people or by parlamentarians? Excuse my (fake) ignorance.

And it's even worse. The fact that both campaign sides emphasised the importance of the referendum to such a degree -- 'once in a lifetime decision', despite there being people who sure remember voting for or against the EU-predecessor organisation some decades ago -- was an act of irresponsible overdramatisation, in my view.

Anyway, what I want to say is this: Instead of triggering in-depth discussions of the pros and cons (as happened just recently in Switzerland when they decided on whether everybody should receive a basic income from the state -- a pretty well-informed decision made by the populace), I think in Britain, the entire referendum thing mutated into a sickening boulevard media circus event (on all sides!) -- at least that's what it looked like from this end of the world.

I still think that 'direct democracy' is a good thing (and I will continue to defend it). But for that to be meaningful, I'd also expect politicians to be more responsible and speak democratically and not act like a bunch of blind ideology-driven demagogues. Who knows, the result might have been much clearer, as in 75% to 25% or whatever -- and everybody would have been happier.

Anyway, you have a result now, and no matter what the upcoming steps and consequences, nobody from the outside really knows what the British collective mind looks like, so any discussion among Brits at this point is good and healthy.

 

[Script]

You might like this sketch with Patrick Stewart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA

DaveP

Bruno Ganz (Mr AH) was good in that one

 

[thermionic]

It seems like Brexit has taken us back into the dark ages: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/04/david-lammy-receives-death-threat-after-eu-referendum-result

That's my local MP. I'm thinking of immigrating myself. Murdoch and Dacre have enabled the thugs to take over.

 

[DaveP]

Brexit as Electronics

Hi Pete, "whats up with your amp?"

"It won't go up to eleven"

"Are you taking it to a tech?

"Nah, I don't trust those guys"

"Whatcha gonna do then"

"I'm gonna start by cutting all these f**kin wires out, they are obviously holding it back"

"Have you got a schematic?"

"I don't trust those things, the're all part of the conspiracy to keep it on ten!"

"Is anyone helping you?"

"Yeah, there are loads of us with the same problem"

"Any of 'em know Ohm's law?"

"Are you kidding?  They know less than me!"

"Aren't you worried about missing your gig, someone else might get it?"

"Look if I can't fix it, I'll fix it so nobody else can!

"Good luck mate, I think you'll need it"

DaveP

 

[ruffrecords]

Brexit as Electronics

Hi Pete, "whats up with your amp?"

"It won't go up to eleven"

"Are you taking it to a tech?

"Nah, I don't trust those guys"
DaveP

There is far too much gloom and doom in this thread. Let me tell you a different story, and this one has the distinct advantage of being true.

Back in 1987 a bunch of senior engineers working as part of a big consultancy organisation were becoming increasingly fed up with the parent. Their part of the organisation was concerned with developing real products that actually went into production. Their clients wanted tangible results. They wanted to know what the costs were going to be, they wanted commitment to timescales and above all the products had to be manufacturable. The consultancy parent did not like this. All they did was visit companies, look at what they were doing and write reports about what was wrong and what the company should do to fix it. They never had to deliver anything tangible and there was no way to demonstrate that their proposed solution would work - there was not prototype hardware, no drawings, tests results, nada. So the parent decided the engineering aprt of the businesses was going to work they same way they did. Go and look at the technical parts of a company and write a report on what was wrong with it an recommendations for how to fix this.

To cut a long story short, the engineers rebelled and in September 1987 they resigned on mass and set up their own business down the road developing products and working with clients the way they wanted. . A few weeks later, October 19th 1987 was Black Monday:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Monday_(1987)

when stock markets around the world crashed. Their promised investors disappeared so undaunted they dug into their own pockets, took a salary sacrifice and started building a a business they fully controlled.

To cut another long story short, in 1999 they floated a part of this new business on the stock market. At launch it was valued at £500 million. At that time my wife and I owned 1.5% of that company. It was eventually sold some years later to Motorola. Thje original company is still trading, still designing and putting into manufacture world beating products, still in control of is own destiny and still largely owned by the staff who work there.#

The moral of this story is that the important thing is for control of your destiny to be in you own hands, no matter what the risks, rather than in the hands of remote, faceless people  what have not got a clue about you, your business or your clients. And that is as true of great Britain today as it was of that new company in 1987.

Cheers

Ian

 

[DaveP]

There is far too much gloom and doom in this thread

That might have something to do with the collapse in the value of the pound, companies moving headquarters, loss of business confidence and our major market place.  Not to mention an outbreak of long suppressed racial hatred.

If the rest of the world shared the leavers view that we were being held back by the EU, then I would have expected a surge in the pound and new investment.

I used that illustration of electronic ignorance to show that with a few exceptions (ruffrecords) most of the leavers were not the sharpest tools in the box.

The moral of this story is that the important thing is for control of your destiny to be in you own hands, no matter what the risks, rather than in the hands of remote, faceless people  what have not got a clue about you, your business or your clients. And that is as true of great Britain today as it was of that new company in 1987.

That was indeed a great story Ian, no doubt about it, but it did all take place when we were in the EU, not about to leave it.

I am not convinced that we will leave the EU.  I can foresee them playing hardball in the negotiations and whoever gets lumbered with the job, will have to put their efforts to parliament.  If MPs think the deal is not worth the risk on balance they may well reject it in a vote.

DaveP

 

[thermionic]

Of the 30 areas with the least graduates in the UK, 28 of them voted leave: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028

 

[ruffrecords]

There is far too much gloom and doom in this thread

That might have something to do with the collapse in the value of the pound, companies moving headquarters, loss of business confidence and our major market place.  Not to mention an outbreak of long suppressed racial hatred.

I think it is sour grapes by the Remainers. I have talked to a lot of leavers since the event and they are all euphoric; looking forward to the challenge. It is the younger generation that is afraid. They have never known hard times. The racial hatred is just a small bigoted minority taking advantage of an unexpected opportunity. I find waht is happening in the USA today much more disturbing.

If the rest of the world shared the leavers view that we were being held back by the EU, then I would have expected a surge in the pound and new investment.

Time only will tell. It is only two weeks since a totally unexpected result. The rest of the world will take a little while to catch up.

I used that illustration of electronic ignorance to show that with a few exceptions (ruffrecords) most of the leavers were not the sharpest tools in the box.

I think that is going too far. I could say the same about the remainers.

The moral of this story is that the important thing is for control of your destiny to be in you own hands, no matter what the risks, rather than in the hands of remote, faceless people  what have not got a clue about you, your business or your clients. And that is as true of great Britain today as it was of that new company in 1987.

That was indeed a great story Ian, no doubt about it, but it did all take place when we were in the EU, not about to leave it.

I am not convinced that we will leave the EU.  I can foresee them playing hardball in the negotiations and whoever gets lumbered with the job, will have to put their efforts to parliament.  If MPs think the deal is not worth the risk on balance they may well reject it in a vote.

DaveP

The point of the story was to draw parallels between the situation within the corporate entity and our position within the EU and to see it as an opportunity not a threat. It is all about attitude really. If only we could bank on MPs taking the same approach.

Cheers

Ian

 

[thermionic]

Further more, you're saying this right after you're talking about immigrants having committed crimes, so the question that appears in my head is just what type of control, specifically, was applied in your immigration case that would have disqualified you from immigration had you been the type that committed crimes?

This makes another question spring to mind: if immigrants are committing crimes, which country's immigrants are the worst offenders? I mean, is this crime-wave being committed equally by immigrants from all nations, or does one group have a greater propensity towards crime?

 

[thermionic]

I have talked to a lot of leavers since the event and they are all euphoric; looking forward to the challenge. It is the younger generation that is afraid. They have never known hard times.

With all due respect, 'we have never known hard times' strikes me as acutely patronising. How on earth could you generalise about an entire demographic like that?

I have a 6-month old son. I regard the decision to leave the EU as something that will accelerate the growing divide between North + South, rich + poor; as well as creating a new generation of xenophobes. The facts back these assertions up if you read the business pages and look at the acute rise in racist incidents (the majority of which aren't reported).

Politics works on a 30-year cycle. The largest demographic of the 'leavers' won't be around to see the world their vote created...but my son will.  These are people who still read newspapers, and allowed their minds to be poisoned against the EU by Murdoch and the Daily Mail ('criminal immigrants').

Youngsters don't read newspapers anymore, so made their votes based on what they see with their own eyes: and 75% wanted to remain.

Areas with the lowest percentage of immigrants voted most in favour of leaving - that proves the theory about newspapers creating fear, i.e. these people have never interacted with immigrants and only contact is via Murdoch.

Statistics don't lie. Look at the link I posted. This was a deeply unwise decision. But if you've got a pension and no longer need to work, it'll be fine for you.

 

[thermionic]

Oh yeah, and one other thing I didn't mention is that other EU states have really got the jitters about the 2nd largest economy leaving the union. This could lead to the entire break up of the EU. Le Pen in France wants a referendum... The EU was set up to encourage trade, therefore preventing conflict. Putin has imperial ambitions; Trump could get elected in the USA. Did many of the 'leavers' think about the impact in terms of peace and safety in the region? Judging from the demographics, I have to wonder if thought is anathema to them...

 

[ruffrecords]

I have talked to a lot of leavers since the event and they are all euphoric; looking forward to the challenge. It is the younger generation that is afraid. They have never known hard times.

With all due respect, 'we have never known hard times' strikes me as acutely patronising. How on earth could you generalise about an entire demographic like that?

That was in response to the remark 'most of the leavers were not the sharpest tools in the box.' which could be construed as equally patronising. I apologise if I offended you.

I have a 6-month old son. I regard the decision to leave the EU as something that will accelerate the growing divide between North + South, rich + poor; as well as creating a new generation of xenophobes. The facts back these assertions up if you read the business pages and look at the acute rise in racist incidents (the majority of which aren't reported).

Politics works on a 30-year cycle. The largest demographic of the 'leavers' won't be around to see the world their vote created...but my son will.  These are people who still read newspapers, and allowed their minds to be poisoned against the EU by Murdoch and the Daily Mail ('criminal immigrants').

Youngsters don't read newspapers anymore, so made their votes based on what they see with their own eyes: and 75% wanted to remain.

Areas with the lowest percentage of immigrants voted most in favour of leaving - that proves the theory about newspapers creating fear, i.e. these people have never interacted with immigrants and only contact is via Murdoch.

Statistics don't lie. Look at the link I posted. This was a deeply unwise decision. But if you've got a pension and no longer need to work, it'll be fine for you.

I have a 40 year old daughter and 5 grandchildren. You think I don't care about their future?

Statistics lie all the time. The easiest error to make is to assume cause and effect. My first year statistics lecturer gave this warning: The rate of increase in crime in the 1970 was exactly equal to the rate of increase of owner ship of refrigerators. Nobody would suggest banning refrigerators in order to reduce the crime rate.

Cheers

Ian

 

[micaddict]

Ruffrecords wrote:

It is the younger generation that is afraid.

It seems the real fear is in the older generation(s).

I have a 40 year old daughter and 5 grandchildren. You think I don't care about their future?

The majority of those under 45 want to remain. The younger they are, the more they want it.
But many were just too "lazy" to vote.

In the end, it is this group that has to build/maintain the UK, or what's left of it, in the coming decades.
Time will tell if the young ones still have some backbone and stand up or if they just let happen what their mums and dads and grannies and grandpa's think what's best.



Disclaimer: I'm getting an old fart myself and I don't think as highly of the EU as some may assume.
But I recognize mess when I see it.

 

[DaveP]

Statistics lie all the time. The easiest error to make is to assume cause and effect. My first year statistics lecturer gave this warning: The rate of increase in crime in the 1970 was exactly equal to the rate of increase of owner ship of refrigerators. Nobody would suggest banning refrigerators in order to reduce the crime rate.

To complete this as an aside, it turned out to be due to the lead in petrol affecting the brains of boys and crime reduced again when we went unleaded.


If you look at the map of those places requesting a second referendum (remainers)
http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=131215

You will see that the highest proportions are in the university towns of Oxford and Cambridge and of course the major cities where the immigrants are working.  Interviews of the ordinary leavers from Essex and the east of England confirmed my view about the demographic.

DaveP

 

[Sammas]

My uninvited 2 cents.

I think the rise of Trump and the success of the leave campaign have very little to do with immigrants, even though the vitriol pastes it on thick and fast. I think the issues a bunch of western countries are facing are much more systemic in nature. A lot has changed over the last 60 or 70 years, and I think a lot of the negative aspects of society are associated directly with neo-liberalism. It has been the dominate political/economic doctrine for the past 40 years.

40 years of watering down government has made the market the dominant force. Democracy means very little in comparison in this day and age. I think the rise of these movements is simply people trying to grasp onto any change they can. It might work out for the better, but without the security of EU legislation Murdoch may well have his way...

I frankly think you will do yourselves a world of good by kicking out the bankers involved in the global financial crisis, not the immigrants.

 

[mattiasNYC]

My uninvited 2 cents.

I think the rise of Trump and the success of the leave campaign have very little to do with immigrants, even though the vitriol pastes it on thick and fast. I think the issues a bunch of western countries are facing are much more systemic in nature.

I don't necessarily disagree, but the thing is that with such a narrow vote all it would take is a few percentage points of the population voting "on immigration" and that would swing the vote.

I agree with the rest of what you wrote completely.

 

[Sammas]

My uninvited 2 cents.

I think the rise of Trump and the success of the leave campaign have very little to do with immigrants, even though the vitriol pastes it on thick and fast. I think the issues a bunch of western countries are facing are much more systemic in nature.

I don't necessarily disagree, but the thing is that with such a narrow vote all it would take is a few percentage points of the population voting "on immigration" and that would swing the vote.

I agree with the rest of what you wrote completely.

Absolutely. I would say that it entirely did swing the vote in favour of leave, and not by a small margin. It is hugely disheartening. I wish they remained. Immigration is nothing more than a convenient scapegoat for much deeper issues. It often is.