Brexit

[tands]

Yes, let's not pretend. That Israel/Palestine thing was not the smoothest move either.

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

 

[micaddict]

What I actually said came from a conversation I had  when I flew back from Kinshasa in 1977.  We stopped at Lagos and picked up a Nigerian  guy.  It was he who surprised me by saying that he was very pleased that the British had built the underground Metro in Lagos and had built a lot of good infrastructure.  The current liberal thinking is that colonisation was all bad, I think that a lot of people did suffer at the time, but maybe their great grand children are reaping some of the benefits?  At least one African thought so.

Doesn't seem like a hugely significant number.

Look at the alternative if Europeans had never intervened in any way whatsoever.  The  people would have been left as a living  stone age museum exhibit, much like the Amazonian tribes now.  The population would have been kept stable by the food supply and unchecked and untreated disease at a much lower level than it is today.  The younger generation in Africa are embracing mobile phones and the internet, do you think they would have got there without colonisation and independence?

We don't know that and we never will. Guess why ...
One can speculate FWIW.
Scenario one: they never would have industrialised. This means they wouldn't have poisoned the planet with chemicals, caused climate change, looked like freaks from obesitas, botox, silicones and steroids, swallowed antidepressants by the many millions, invented gas chambers and nukes and a zillion other achievements of the "civilised" world.
Scenario two: they would have industrialised, but in their own way and at their own pace. Africa has all the resources; no need to colonise, I would think. And from what I know they sit on the bulk of rare earth metals. Mobile phones, you said?

Why would so many Africans want to risk everything to get to the countries of their former colonial masters, if it had all been so bad, surely they would have not wanted to have anything to do with us.  Certainly it is hard to see why so many former colonies were happy to join the Commonwealth after independence, if the British were so hated for what they had done.

If you can't beat them, join them? Well, the real story is much longer (and very sad) and I think we went through all that before. I could put a lot of energy into it to explain, step by step, but I have a feeling it's energy wasted. It's just a dogma, right?

Liberal dogma is one thing, reality in the minds of Africans is quite another.

You should know.

 

[ruffrecords]

What does "rolling" mean?  Do you mean trolling?
The UK, like the US, has had low measures of inflation for the past few years. I was seeing expectations that it would be higher with Brexit. Maybe it won't be, I don't know.

Yes, trolling - I have dyslexic fingers.

Post Brexit there were dire predictions for the economy. Right now GDP and employment are the highest they have ever been. Our economy is in better shape than most other European countries.

Cheers

Ian

 

[DaveP]

This means they wouldn't have poisoned the planet with chemicals, caused climate change, looked like freaks from obesitas, botox, silicones and steroids, swallowed antidepressants by the many millions, invented gas chambers and nukes and a zillion other achievements of the "civilised" world.

You have listed  all the negatives but have omitted the positives, which does not make for a balanced view.

Sure I can agree with much of what you say about the negatives of modern life and I notice that the list contains many things that are the result of human weakness and indiscipline as well as perverted science.  But life is not all one thing or the other, it is patchy and there is no doubt that modern medicine,  radiology and scanners have been of great benefit to mankind too.  Modern food production techniques have freed many people from backbreaking labour to do other things with their lives or not.  There is a Dutch family living near me that has no car, or electricity in their home and they go everywhere on bicycles  in almost all weathers, They also grow most of their own food, whether their children appreciate this lifestyle is another matter, but the civilised world has given them a choice.

DaveP

 

[micaddict]

Post Brexit there were dire predictions for the economy. Right now GDP and employment are the highest they have ever been. Our economy is in better shape than most other European countries.

Cheers

Ian

Ours is, too.
And you're not out, yet.

Anyway, the EU is just a manmade system that has pros and cons. In itself it's not the point or the problem I see. Inside or outside.
And who knows, perhaps the UK will do better after they have left. I don't expect this, but nobody really knows what's in the future.
Perhaps it wasn't clear, so I'll say it again. It's how the whole thing is set in the works, and the consequences that will have, that worries me. This whole ballgame will likely cause polarisation as well as growing nationalism (perhaps even to unhealthy proportions). And the latter is more likely to happen on the UK side. Assuming the rest stays together. Either way, it won't bring much good.
Even Mrs. May, who promoted remain ("she warned UK voters that Brexit could have seriously damaging effects on the economy, the security, and even the current form of the United Kingdom") has now adopted the G-word to satisfy the masses.

You have listed  all the negatives but have omitted the positives, which does not make for a balanced view.
DaveP

The so called positives get fired as us all day, every day.
It keeps the economy going, which is good, or so they say.
There's no need for me to add to it all.
And when I listed some negatives I wasn't even warming up.

Sure I can agree with much of what you say about the negatives of modern life and I notice that the list contains many things that are the result of human weakness and indiscipline as well as perverted science.  But life is not all one thing or the other, it is patchy and there is no doubt that modern medicine,  radiology and scanners have been of great benefit to mankind too.  Modern food production techniques have freed many people from backbreaking labour to do other things with their lives or not.

Dave, I don't even know where to start ...
I'll refrain for now.

There is a Dutch family living near me that has no car, or electricity in their home and they go everywhere on bicycles  in almost all weathers, They also grow most of their own food, whether their children appreciate this lifestyle is another matter, but the civilised world has given them a choice.

I like that. 
As long as none of the 58 nuclear reactors in France melt down, they should be good.
(Over 1000 nuclear incidents in France in 2016 alone.)
Not that my country is far away ...

 

[ruffrecords]

Anyway, the EU is just a manmade system that has pros and cons. In itself it's not the point or the problem I see. Inside or outside.
And who knows, perhaps the UK will do better after they have left. I don't expect this, but nobody really knows what's in the future.
Perhaps it wasn't clear, so I'll say it again. It's how the whole thing is set in the works, and the consequences that will have, that worries me. This whole ballgame will likely cause polarisation as well as growing nationalism (perhaps even to unhealthy proportions). And the latter is more likely to happen on the UK side. Assuming the rest stays together. Either way, it won't bring much good.

LOL, you say nobody knows the future then go ahead and predict it.

Cheers

Ian

 

[micaddict]

LOL, you say nobody knows the future then go ahead and predict it.

Cheers

Ian

Firstly, I said nobody really knows what's in the future.
And predicting, by nature, is not quite the same as knowing.
Obviously.
Predicting is the best we can do.
And no one here is immune to it.
Without it, it would even be pointless to vote.

 

[JohnRoberts]

OK here's a prediction... "it's looking bad for a single world government any time soon."

JR

 

[micaddict]

Some are so predictable.

 

[ruffrecords]

Firstly, I said nobody really knows what's in the future.
And predicting, by nature, is not quite the same as knowing.
Obviously.
Predicting is the best we can do.
And no one here is immune to it.
Without it, it would even be pointless to vote.

I think you are splitting hairs, but no matter, here is my prediction. In 40 years time, people will look back at Brexit and wonder why we did not do it  sooner. And Anthropomorphic  Global Warming (AGW) will have been revealed for the huge con it was.

Cheers

Ian

 

[JohnRoberts]

I think you are splitting hairs, but no matter, here is my prediction. In 40 years time, people will look back at Brexit and wonder why we did not do it  sooner. And Anthropomorphic  Global Warming (AGW) will have been revealed for the huge con it was.

Cheers

Ian

Only thing I am confident about 40 years from now is I'll be taking the dirt nap... 

I would have bet big money I'd never live this long ( or I would have taken better care of my knees).

JR

 

[ruffrecords]

Only thing I am confident about 40 years from now is I'll be taking the dirt nap... 

I would have bet big money I'd never live this long ( or I would have taken better care of my knees).

JR

That would make me 106 - no a likely happenstance. If you believe in an afterlife, we'll both be looking down, pointing fingers and laughing ourselves silly.

Cheers

Ian

Cheers

Ian

 

[DaveP]

I will make a prediction for 40 years time too, safe in the knowledge that I will not be here to see it come true or not.

All the CO2 in the atmosphere has come from the burning of fossil fuels and hydrocarbons, but a good percentage has dissolved in water to become carbonic acid and it will gradually acidify the oceans enough to upset some species of sea life.  These may well be at the start of the food chain.

The heat trapped by CO2 will heat the atmosphere and hydrosphere so that the energy content of these systems will grow and grow.  This will translate to faster and faster winds and wetter weather in the poles where water vapour goes to condense.  There will be continual flooding.  Both Ice caps will start to melt but the Artic will be the first to disappear allowing shipping over the North Pole and Artic oil drilling.  Perma frost will melt in the Artic circle releasing methane and CO2 that has been frozen in for 10,000 years,  This will cause thermal runaway.  The chaos caused in the developed world will minimise the help given to the equatorial parts of the globe and millions of people will be allowed to die of famine, those that don't die will try to get to the developed world in numbers that will overwhelm border security unless they shoot to kill.  People that are being born right now will have to deal with this.  I see NGO's providing water and healthcare to increase populations that will be unable to sustain themselves in future years.  The climate problem will coincide with the population peaking so it will go critical very quickly.  There are zero signs that anyone is interested in controlling population, even if the CO2 production ever comes under control.  The melting Ice caps will cause the ocean levels to rise making many countries smaller and putting major coastal cities under water.  The days of Brexit and Trump will be looked upon as the good old days.  The only natural event that could prevent this tragic scenario is the swift arrival of the next Maunder Minimum, but we are also due a pole reversal of the earth's magnetic field to add to the chaos.

I have not lifted this story from any book, I just worked it out from a straightforward understanding of how these systems work confirmed by watching the change in the weather over the last 60 years.    The best line from American Beauty kind of sums it up for me, "Never underestimate the power of denial".

DaveP

 

[ruffrecords]

I have not lifted this story from any book, I just worked it out from a straightforward understanding of how these systems work confirmed by watching the change in the weather over the last 60 years.    The best line from American Beauty kind of sums it up for me, "Never underestimate the power of denial".

DaveP

The arrogance of mankind never ceases to amaze me.

Cheers

Ian

 

[micaddict]

The arrogance of mankind never ceases to amaze me.

Cheers

Ian

You hit the nail on the head there.

But I have a feeling we mean different things.  :

 

[ruffrecords]

You hit the nail on the head there.

But I have a feeling we mean different things.  :

For once we agree!!

Cheers

IAn

 

[micaddict]

Only thing I am confident about 40 years from now is I'll be taking the dirt nap... 

I would have bet big money I'd never live this long ( or I would have taken better care of my knees).

JR

Problem solved.

 

[micaddict]

If there ever was one.

 

[ramshackles]

Now perhaps our fishermen will be able to fish in our own seas. Perhaps we will be able to rescue the steel industry. It is not so much about what we want to keep, it is more about what we have lost.

I find it highly unlikely the UK government will decide to reverse laws that are intended to keep some fishable population in the sea. I fully expect fishing quotas and boundaries to remain largely unchanged. Perhaps it means the steel industry can continue, but I dont expect a resurgence, just a status quo, especially since 'blame' for the declining steel industry cannot be solely placed at the EU's door.
I very much hope the UK will continue to honour the Paris agreement and emissions targets and even do more.

 

[ruffrecords]

I find it highly unlikely the UK government will decide to reverse laws that are intended to keep some fishable population in the sea. I fully expect fishing quotas and boundaries to remain largely unchanged.

It's not the quotas that are killing the UK fishing industry, it is who they are assigned to.

Cheers

Ian