CD loudness? How to get?

[Svart]

This isn't another CD loudness war question at all.

When I mix a song, no matter how much the song is compressed(or not), they never sound as loud on a burned CD as any song does on a "real" CD.

Anybody know why this might be?  A function of the burning software? A limitation on how the CDs are burned?

I could be clipping like crazy and it still wouldn't sound as loud.

 

[amorris@home]

What I have found, is that this is a mix issue. I was able to get very loud mixes by really thinning out certain sounds. leaving the strength to only a few sounds, usually drums, and the rest were just the essence of the sound. I found that there are many freqs in a sound that move a meter but are not heard. low feq stuff especially. I would solo certain sounds in a mix and there would be almost no level but were heard as prominent. I would use a vu meter to "see" what is not heard and remove it. then the meter would look right and I could lower its volume dramatically. hence the whole mix got pretty loud.

 

[emrr]

I have also seen that proper mastering grade limiters and AD converters can get a reasonably stupid level of loudness without making the sound fall apart.  A lot of rap and hip-hop stuff really is just AD converter clipped.  Good converters sound reasonably okay in clipping for some music.  I can generally get a much louder acceptable sound with something like a lowly pair of distressors (not a great choice by any means) than I can with most garden variety software limiters, even ones with look-ahead function.  Many times its a combination of multiple layers of analog comp/limit with software lookahead final and/or AD converter clipping for shaving those final samples off. 

 

[tv]

@amorris: hey, do you have any "online references" that describe the process? (though I was already scrounging gearslutz wisdom..)

general: does anybody have any clipper schematic that could be used as a "build" base? And speciffically - is there any benefit of using preemphasis-clipper-deemphasis sort of arrangement? In short I'd like to be able to get from -5 to within -1dbFS peak with a hairy hw clipper (some day) and add the last 2dB with software (well... like anybody else).

 

[zebra50]

Digital jiggery pokery!

Buy/steal a copy of T-racks and do some experiments, I'm not saying it's the always best way to go sonically, but it can make you loud and open your eyes!

 

[Svart]

Thanks all for your replies.

I do feel that some of them are basically how to make it sound loud but I still have to mention that I can have a completely clipped waveform playing from a burned CD and it still does not sound as loud as a real CD.  I'm looking for technical reasons like maybe different software suites see digital 0 as different levels or that CD burners might burn differently somehow.  It seems that no matter what I do it's never as loud. 

 

[craptical]

Try ripping a commercial CD and re-burn it with your software.

Best,

/Dave

 

[emrr]

I'd refer back to amorris' reply, and also suggest lots of RMS based compression on individual tracks within the mix; likely a culprit.  

I wonder when you say 'real CD' what peak and RMS readings you are seeing on that CD.  This is a highly variable thing, and any pre-1992ish CD with original mastering will many times be quieter than rough mixes people kick out these days.  

 

[zebra50]

iTunes does weird stuff, btw. (but I doubt that's your problem.)

 

[3nity]

yes itunes does weird things...thats why i use WM for burning mixes...and they sound very loud but i never compared..

Good luck

 

[Svart]

Try ripping a commercial CD and re-burn it with your software.

That's genius.

I didn't think of that.  I'll try it and see.

 

[NewYorkDave]

Use LP, HP and band-reject filters at mixdown (or even at tracking) to remove "unwanted information" from individual tracks. That'll bring you a long way toward increasing your apparent loudness, in my experience. Done properly, it'll also increase the cohesiveness and clarity of the mix.

 

[Junction]

Loudness comes with high average levels in combination with compressed/limited peaks. These days most high end studios are using multi-band compressor limiters with agc, just like we have been doing in radio for years. In the radio world, compression and limiting is just not enough to get the loudness up, aggressive agc is necessary to lift the average level and compression/limiting to stop it going thru the roof.

The current trends for maximising loudness is to run every mic thru a 1176, LA2 etc and then a multi band processor on the mix. Pay serious attention though to individual track average levels, I guess you could push the average levels up by using an expander followed by compression/limiting.

Michael

 

[Johan]

it doesnt matter how strong/loud the peaks are if the average is weak...
..first compression ( lowish ratio and not too fast on the attack) then limiting...thats what works for me...but I'm just a hack...

j

 

[keefaz]

Sometimes you feel the sound loud but it is not soo loud in fact
Just illusion of loudness, for example if you add bass overdrive sound (bass distorsion in hi freq range)
to a bass sound, you could make it huge without necessarly add gain

 

[MartyMart]

Try this little trick :
Run off a mix / master to the best quality and loudness that you can without it being "overdone"

Open the file inside Pro tools or logic and look at the audio waveform editor, use the "search peaks" function.
You will find there are many "tiny" peaks that are at the very top of the files headroom, perhaps only fractions
of a millisecond long - they can be combinations of transients from say a snare & cymbal etc.
`Highlight just these small peaks one at a time and use the "reduce gain" to bring them down by around 3 dB.
You may find just a few  or several dozen, so it could take an hour or so.
Use the search peak and reduce each time you do so.
At the end of this process your mix can gain several dB of headroom and you can "normalize" back up to full headroom.

That can make a big difference to your "loudness" problem.
Don't keep repeating this on one file, just reduce all the peaks and normalize back once ... sonics can suffer if you repeat this process !!

Marty.

 

[Svart]

I do the same thing in Reaper and Soundforge.  I increase volume until those peaks are at 0 then limit them down a couple db then normalize.  It works great and I can get it loud but it's still nothing like a real CD.

I still need to try to take a cd and rip a track off of it and burn it to see what the difference is.

 

[rodabod]

What I have found, is that this is a mix issue. I was able to get very loud mixes by really thinning out certain sounds. leaving the strength to only a few sounds, usually drums, and the rest were just the essence of the sound. I found that there are many freqs in a sound that move a meter but are not heard. low feq stuff especially.

Other than reducing the dynamic range, I think this is the key. You can get very high average levels without too many artefacts using multiband compression, but to actually achieve the "loudness" we are talking about, it helps to slim down each of the individual components as amorris describes.

 

[radiance]

Another trick here...
Limit individual tracks, not all tracks, just the important ones like snare, bass, vocal or whatever. Put a small notch EQ after the limiter to cut away the artifacts from the limiter a bit. Now when you're done, you can limit your master (again) BUT don't use the same limiter cause then you'll get the same distortion twice. Experiement with different kind of limiters.
Also, have a listen to the sony oxford inflator. That WILL make your tracks loud but it's a different algorithm than a limiter.

 

[Moby]

Svart, what do you mean when you say "real CD"? Some of your song listened from fabricated CD or somebody Else's song? I would like to hear some of your mixes.... It will be much easier to figure out a problem