CD loudness? How to get?

[Rycooder]

It's really all about the mastering.
I don't work ITB so I'm not sure what problems might be in there,but you should mix for good solid levels without stressing about it being "as loud". Give yourself a good "pre master" and then have that mastered.
Even if you're mastering it yourself,you should treat that as another process.

.02

 

[spica]

I'm a little late to the conversation here, but I agree with the suggestion to try multiband compression/limiting. 

I've been using the Waves L3 multimaximizer for a couple years and have been pretty happy with the results I've been able to get using that as my final level control.  You can push it a decent bit before things start sounding really awful - by that time I'm usually past where I want to be volume wise.

 

[Moby]

I'm a little late to the conversation here, but I agree with the suggestion to try multiband compression/limiting. 

I've been using the Waves L3 multimaximizer for a couple years and have been pretty happy with the results I've been able to get using that as my final level control.  You can push it a decent bit before things start sounding really awful - by that time I'm usually past where I want to be volume wise.

I'm not sure what level you are "hunting" but I never achieved hot levels with waves without unpleasant mid-high distortion. It works for few db's , but if you want to be in the loudness war nothing but clipping helps. I agree with one of comments about clipping the ADC input. Yes, I'm talking about -9db RMS  Svart, I would like to hear some of your work and to try to squash it...

 

[barclaycon]

The Sony Oxford Inflator is a great plugin and it's a nicer result than simply smashing the peaks up to the endstop.
It's a sort of crush and blend because it is adding a compressed signal to the the original with the result that the low level information is raised - making for a more dense mix.
Don't get me wrong, a little bit of peak limiting can be very good, but it seems as though this is the only trick most mastering engineers have and it's often mis-used.
I've had a lot of what I would consider to be great mixes, ruined by being flattening to oblivion.
It's nice to have a loud result - but it's not essential.

Having done a good deal of mastering myself I can tell you that there's not a lot you can do when somebody brings in a squashed mix and wants you to try and make it better.
A loud shit mix is still a shit mix!

 

[Moby]

A loud shit mix is still a shit mix!

hehe, I agree, but we are talking about good mix? Are we? Personally I hate today's mastering levels and i have a feeling that old vinyl mastering sounds much, much better, but what to do.    When we talk about plg limiters I prefer Ozone's or T-rack's. But, sweetening must be done carefully to achieve really loud levels without harsh. Oxford is good, much better that waves 
If you ask for pro range nothing but Weis, hardware L2 and again clipping....

One more thing... People will accuse me that I'm crazy but I never did anything correct under windoze XP . Simply, there is something wrong sonically  compared to OS X. XP's Sound is always badly smashed .  :-[

 

[lofi]

 

[Moby]

He,he, I already added my support to "turn me up" . In hope we will stop the war 

 

[Svart]

Ok folks, I'm going to have to mention ONCE AGAIN that this IS NOT about getting a loud, squashed mix, this is about the fact that no matter what I do, the burned CDs are lower in volume regardless of how squashed the mix is.

I originally posted this asking if anyone knew of a reason why a burned CD could/would physically/electrically be lower in volume than a real CD.  So far I have only read mixing suggestions..

 

[shabtek]

try burning the same file on a few different systems/authoring programs. is there a difference?

 

[ubxf]

Quote
Try ripping a commercial CD and re-burn it with your software.

That's genius.

I didn't think of that.  I'll try it and see.

Did you find out anything?

 

[amorris@home]

Svart, back in the day I had this same question when I got a slot on a bigger record and I had no idea why songs they sent me with the same meter levels would be different apparent volumes. It was all mix issues. there are frequencies that you dont need to hear that can be removed. strictly EQ. then taming jumpy sounds with faders and comps but I got my mixes just under what they sent me from Loud Records, pun inteneded. and they accepted them for the compilation.

 

[Moby]

I originally posted this asking if anyone knew of a reason why a burned CD could/would physically/electrically be lower in volume than a real CD.  So far I have only read mixing suggestions..

You never told us what burning software U use. I don't have sucha issues with wave burner...but there is always some sound difference 
Did I understand your problem? You burn the file on audio CD , than when U grab it back to wav or aif file is different in loudness? Or you determine loudness by listening through computer CD rom? I would not trust in CD rom 
Here's the short story what can help you understand the burning problems.
The specification for all CD's is the so-called "Red Book" (also public standard IEC 908). Unfortunately, the specifications specify more than 50 different parameters. There are two elements to measuring disc quality: Error rates and pit geometry. The easiest way to get a picture of disc quality is to measure error rates.  Most serious defects will cause an increase in error rates.  By looking at both the quantity and severity of errors, you can get a pretty good picture of disc quality.  Playback errors can be caused by two things: Localized defects, and poor pit geometry. In order for a disc to play, the reflected laser beam must generate track-following and focus servo signals so that the player can follow the track and stay focused.  Generation of the proper servo signals is completely dependent on the size and shape of the pits on the disc.  Without the proper "pit geometry", the disc will not play reliably. And so on... That's why I always prepare master CD's for fabrication to DDP format and there is no such a issues. Burning audio CD's without expensive CD burners and without verifying it by CD verification systems you will always end with thousand errors which can't be corrected  :-[
I don't know does this story helps but maybe is good info to know  ;D

 

[Svart]

Ok, I did find that ripping and then burning a professional audio track does sound lower in volume than the original so it's obviously either the program, the burner or the CDRs.

I have been using Nero to burn stuff for years simply because it worked great and I never felt like trying other things.  I've used 3 different burners during the last 2 years and I didn't note any difference between their levels.  I've tried the expensive Taiyo Yudens and the cheap 100 for 10$ CDs and no real difference except that the cheap CDs skip like crazy in my car where real CDs and the high quality CDrs don't.

I guess the next step is trying a different program?

That's good information Moby, what software can I use to test my CD burns?

 

[Moby]

Only available audio burn analysis software I know is Plextool http://www.plextools.com/info/info.asp Of course, you must have Plextor CD writter  Other available analysis tools are expensive and price starts from few k$. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I know about  8)
As I mentioned before I use Apple's Wave burner and Toast pro under 10.5 OS x. Whenever I burn some audio CD (burn speed x1) for test or car listening I hear some difference from original (depending on burning media quality) but don't the have loudness problem. It's mostly kind of harshness or blurriness.  Hope this helps 

 

[Conductor]

It is not switched on the "Normalize all audio files" switch?
(Default: Normalization method: RMS, 20% = -14dB!!!)

 

[Svart]

I DO have a plextor, I'll try that program!

Conductor, that box is NOT checked.  The audio sounds exactly the same as the master, I just have to turn the volume up a bit more so I don't think it's compressing/normalizing.

 

[Moby]

Conductor , introduce yourself 

 

[emrr]

I can't imagine what, other than a program setting, would cause this. 

 

[Moby]

I still don't understand... did you try to burn ripped files from audio disc to another disc? If so, maybe you have a "ripping volume" changed... Sorry I'm not familiar with Nero so don't know is that possible but just a thought  :-\

 

[fum]

See Svart,

We all use Macs, and don't have a problem 

*nudge nudge, poke poke*