Charlie Rose

[dmp]

And Matador did a rather thorough job of explaining what I may have glossed over--on the right there seems to be a push toward normalizing/accepting/glorifying sex offenders if it keeps those terrible Dems out of office.  Regardless of what Dems do, how is that in any way healthy or "progress"?

And yes, I know it's not all Republicans doing that, but in Trump's case (we'll see about Moore) it was enough to win an election.

I also am trying to understand the discrepancy between the consequences for a Democrat / Republican.  It seems like there is a pass given to Republicans by the voters when there are credible accusations.  Now this is the party that was holier than thou when it came to Bill Clinton 20 yrs ago. Isn't the hypocrisy and current behavior of the Republican party pretty noticeable here?

And for the record there were over 15 accusations against Trump including teenage girls from the miss teen USA pageant.

Is it:
1. team politics to an extreme level (Republicans argue for their side regardless of the facts)
2. partisanship of news sources (Republicans don't believe the stories because they are on the mainstream media, fake news)
Or something else?

 

[JohnRoberts]

As I predicted this cultural shift will empower more women to make accusations (mostly a good thing).

More high profile shoes to drop, since this behavior seems more prevalent among powerful/influential  people. (like Matt Lauer this morning)

Kind of disgusting to learn that some politicians used taxpayer money to quiet/settle accusations. Hopefully there will be a new bunch of empty seats to fill in congress (drain the swamp).

JR 

 

[dmp]

So does "drain the swamp" mean politicize issues against Democrats to get more Republicans elected regardless of their personal character, accusations against them, pedophilia, etc?

I think this would be kind of disgusting but I'm having a hard time seeing it any other way.

 

[JohnRoberts]

So does "drain the swamp" mean politicize issues against Democrats to get more Republicans elected regardless of their personal character, accusations against them, pedophilia, etc?

I think this would be kind of disgusting but I'm having a hard time seeing it any other way.

To some people everything is political....   

Social media seems to amplify an echo chamber effect, where like minded people reinforce each other... In control technology this is called positive feedback and unstable.

I think the political elite from both parties need to get flushed.  Throw out all the scumbags.

JR

 

[Matador]

I think the political elite from both parties need to get flushed.  Throw out all the scumbags.

While I can agree with this in principle, the current batch of  potential 'replacements' is simply another Sophie's choice where we trade one kind of deplorable for another.

 

[hodad]

What bothers me: 
If a person voted for Trump to be snatch-grabber in chief, what business does he have fretting about the transgressions of other politicians and public figures?  Hasn't this person, with his vote, tacitly acknowledged that sexual harassment and assault are less important than some political/ideological ideals that apparently were for him embodied in Trump? 

And if a person can support Trump or Roy Moore while condemning Al Franken or Charlie Rose for similar transgressions, hasn't this person made this a political issue himself? 

 

[JohnRoberts]

What bothers me: 
If a person voted for Trump to be snatch-grabber in chief, what business does he have fretting about the transgressions of other politicians and public figures?  Hasn't this person, with his vote, tacitly acknowledged that sexual harassment and assault are less important than some political/ideological ideals that apparently were for him embodied in Trump? 

And if a person can support Trump or Roy Moore while condemning Al Franken or Charlie Rose for similar transgressions, hasn't this person made this a political issue himself?

No... I've explained my vote enough times I should not have to keep repeating myself.

The mistake is thinking any one issue outweighs all the others...  Life is a simultaneous equation with multiple variables... all can not be optimized at the same time, one must accept the lesser evil, to realize other benefits.

Illegal behavior is...  illegal and should be prosecuted...  The sexual harassment transgression appears to be in the process of being redefined more severely. I recall a similar cultural shift when drunk driving became criminalized.  (for the record I am not supporting drunk driving, or sexual harassment, just recognizing the similarity in a major cultural pivot).

JR

PS: This feels a lot like a personal attack. Claiming moral authority, etc...  this is small ball politics but pretty common these days. We should be better than this.

 

[hodad]

It bothers me that you insist that this is not a political issue.  Of  course it is.  Your repeated denials do not change this.  I have tried to approach that issue from several different angles (as have a few others in this thread), only to be met by your flat denial. 

And on a broader level:  when right-wingers happily (or even somewhat unhappily) support someone like Roy Moore, what are people on the left supposed to think or do?  We'd like to do what's right, but what is the political cost if the other side lacks a moral compass?  Righties want to hold Dems to a higher standard while they consider themselves above reproach. 

We're not playing the same game here, the right and left.  I for one find it repulsive and tiresome, and it's one reason I rarely participate in these discussions anymore.  There is no winning an argument against a modern-day right winger.  No marshaling of facts, no pointing out of logical fallacies or rank hypocrisy will change anything.  A right winger is always right, no matter how wrong. 

I would love it if I felt there was a place for discussions betwixt right and left that involved friendly give and take, but right wingers take and never give. 

That's all.

 

[tands]

Here's a big picture of Roy Moore.

 

[tands]

If a person voted for Trump to be snatch-grabber in chief, what business does he have fretting about the transgressions of other politicians and public figures?  Hasn't this person, with his vote, tacitly acknowledged that sexual harassment and assault are less important than some political/ideological ideals that apparently were for him embodied in Trump? 

And if a person can support Trump or Roy Moore while condemning Al Franken or Charlie Rose for similar transgressions, hasn't this person made this a political issue himself?

I didn't vote for either, but thinking about Trump's transgressions versus Clinton's, I had to conclude that Clinton's piles of dead bodies 'outweighed' (so to speak) Trumps gropings and rapes. There it is.

I also assume that republicans are wholly intellectually dishonest, whatever the topic. I've not been disappointed.

 

[JohnRoberts]

It bothers me that you insist that this is not a political issue.  Of  course it is.  Your repeated denials do not change this.  I have tried to approach that issue from several different angles (as have a few others in this thread), only to be met by your flat denial. 

Just to be clear... are you saying that Charlie Rose being fired is a political issue? or Matt Lauer, or Garrison Keillor, or all the other turds floating up to the surface in this new social/cultural environment.

And on a broader level:  when right-wingers happily (or even somewhat unhappily) support someone like Roy Moore, what are people on the left supposed to think or do?  We'd like to do what's right, but what is the political cost if the other side lacks a moral compass?  Righties want to hold Dems to a higher standard while they consider themselves above reproach. 

I do not give a F about Roy Moore... If he has committed a crime throw him in jail. I would miss the senate seat.

We're not playing the same game here, the right and left.  I for one find it repulsive and tiresome, and it's one reason I rarely participate in these discussions anymore.  There is no winning an argument against a modern-day right winger.  No marshaling of facts, no pointing out of logical fallacies or rank hypocrisy will change anything.  A right winger is always right, no matter how wrong. 

I am not playing a game, but the political spinners from both sides seem like they are playing exactly the same game (called "gotcha" )    This socio-cultural pivot is still in early days and there will be far more bodies on the ground (from both sides) before the accusations of sexual harassment/abuse taper off.

I would love it if I felt there was a place for discussions betwixt right and left that involved friendly give and take, but right wingers take and never give. 

That's all.

Keep trying , or not

JR

 

[dmp]

Just to be clear... are you saying that Charlie Rose being fired is a political issue? or Matt Lauer, or Garrison Keillor, or all the other turds floating up to the surface in this new social/cultural environment.

Hum, if I added Bill O'Reilly to your list am I politicizing it? I think he is saying by only criticizing liberal leaning figures you are politicizing it  (politicians or public figures).

I don't think hodad or I are trying to make a personal attack . I certainly am not and hope that I can disagree and even point out what I see as a debate tactic on your part without it coming off as a personal attack.
But it's not very interesting to discuss anything when people are so firmly arguing for their perspective (team politics) that they cannot concede anything.
There seems to be an inability to find any middleground these days in discussions. 

I do not give a F about Roy Moore... If he has committed a crime throw him in jail. I would miss the senate seat.

This is actually a good point that I think is worth thinking about. Do we want people 'convicted' in this public, lynch mob fashion?
Most of the public figures have not done anything that would count as a crime. Yeah, a business should fire someone who behaves in appropriately in their job capacity. But it seems to be dangerous waters.

For instance, this is a letter G Keillor provided to the NYT about the accusation. I haven't found anything more. If this is all it was, I think NPR's reaction is ridiculous.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
“I put my hand on a woman’s bare back,” he wrote. “I meant to pat her back after she told me about her unhappiness and her shirt was open and my hand went up it about six inches. She recoiled. I apologized. I sent her an email of apology later and she replied that she had forgiven me and not to think about it.”

Mr. Keillor claimed that they continued to be friends “right up until her lawyer called.”

He insisted his discomfort with physical affection was common knowledge, adding, “If I had a dollar for every woman who asked to take a selfie with me and who slipped an arm around me and let it drift down below the beltline, I’d have at least a hundred dollars.” 

 

[hodad]

Just to be clear... are you saying that Charlie Rose being fired is a political issue?
JR

Not exactly.  I had shifted the topic a little (somewhere above) to address the issue of Dem politician vs. R politician.  Where indeed it is very political, and very different left to right. 

I happened to read after my last post something by Josh Marshall about the different "consituencies" of the various transgressors:  Lauer et al are faced by the broader public's judgment, as well as stockholders etc.  Trump's constituency is older, mostly white folks--not even a majority of people who voted in the presidential election.  And they just don't give a crap.    Franken faces a younger, more female, more ethnically diverse consituency--he has to be more aggressively apologetic, even if he hasn't resigned yet. 

Marshall addressed it more clearly and eloquently than I did, but it's definitely something to consider. 

And it's worth noting that if an R mudslinger goes after a D, the D is more likely to take a hit than an R attacked by a D.  So while the rest of the world grows and learns and evolves, Rs consolidate power by supporting whatever unscrupulous, immoral turd they think will get them the activist judges they so desperately crave and maybe a statue of the Ten Commandments so they can pretend they're good people. 

Your own statement about Moore--put him in jail if he's committed a crime--indicates you're not really worried about his character, but whether he's been found guilty or not.  That, frankly, is a load of crap.  I suspect you understand that it's a smarmy dodge at best, though I don't expect you to admit it.  (Just for starters:  how easy do you think it would have been for a 14 year old girl to bring charges against the DA in small-town Alabama in the 90s?)

And to get back to the original point:  I think to a certain extent all of this change is very much political, in that I'm not sure much of it would have happened without Trump getting elected.  I think he energized women to speak and to speak out about these things as they probably haven't before.  And certainly Trump's repulsive behavior (and repulsive words) have pushed pubic discussion of these issues to the fore.  So yes.  This is very much political. 

 

[Matador]

To play devil's advocate a bit, imagine a world where we had to pick between Bill Clinton and Ted Cruz, knowing what we know now (to be fair, since most of the Clinton allegations came to the public towards the end of his presidency in 1998, so let's pretend we know that going in to this hypothetical election).

So yes, after throwing up in your mouth for a bit, could anyone who leans left contemplate pulling the lever for Cruz over Clinton?  I voted for Clinton in 1992, but it would be a much harder choice now I think.

 

[tands]

Their policies are identical, so it comes down to which side you want to watch make the concession speech.

https://twitter.com/empireburlesque/status/935907093437206529

https://twitter.com/ashleyruuu/status/935600525889990656

 

[tands]

Get a load a this little creep.

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/warner-bros-sexual-harassment-andrew-kreisberg-1202612522/

 

[JohnRoberts]

I am curious to see if this new cultural sensitivity to sexual misconduct blows back on the popularity of the misogynist hip hop/rap community ? Should be hard to keep ignoring their messaging.

JR

PS: Coincidentally Saudi Arabia seems to relaxing restrictions on women, allowing them to drive and attend public events without a male escort.

 

[tands]

Is that a couple gambits to change the subject there, JR? You want us to talk about how those 'other' guys are worse, instead of Charlie Rose's Crusty White Paw, or Roy Moore's Christian Pedophile Date Rapes?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Is that a couple gambits to change the subject there, JR? You want us to talk about how those 'other' guys are worse, instead of Charlie Rose's Crusty White Paw, or Roy Moore's Christian Pedophile Date Rapes?

Why would I care what you talk about?  I rarely even read your posts.  : 

I am trying to have an intellectual conversation (right now a soliloquy) . Not the typical political mud slinging that passes for discussion around here.

I seem to be alone in thinking that this is a cultural pivot not unlike how drunk driving became criminalized last century....

Back in the day before that shift, police would just help a drunk driver get home, but now they help them into a jail cell. MADD was only founded in 1980 (google it if you are too young to remember).

IF this is a cultural pivot, the rap/hip-hop community seems like a target rich opportunity for new accusations and revelations about sexual mistreatment.

The scumbag, politicians and media personalities will float to the surface soon enough...  This should create a bunch of new legislative seat openings to fill, (a good thing). Political operatives from both sides have plenty of targets to attack and they are already hard at work. I have no desire to pile on, or declare my own moral superiority.

JR

PS: I am not defending drunk driving or sexual abuse, just trying to take a step back and observe what is going on around us if we remove the "everything is political filters". This hyper-political environment should pass eventually (I hope).

 

[hodad]

Why would I care what you talk about?  I rarely even read your posts.  : 


I seem to be alone in thinking that this is a cultural pivot not unlike how drunk driving became criminalized last century....

You're not alone in that (though there's certainly room for major backlash as well).  I do find it disturbing (and occasionally infuriating) that so many on the  holier-than-thou right can work so hard to find the most ridiculous and feeble justifications for supporting their morally turpitudinous candidates--the current rush to defend Roy Moore's child molestation and teen sex assault might be funny if it weren't so appalling. 

I work with an interesting mix of people, and I spend a fair amount of time re-evaluating my own attitudes on race and sex because so much of that was ingrained in us as we grew up--I came from a fairly educated/enlightened family, but even still.  Times were different.  Finding ways to break free of these biases takes effort--sometimes a shock to the system, as we're currently experiencing, is what's needed to jump start a little introspection and change among the broader population.