Clean And Transparent Analog Pro Audio Devices Still Have Sense ?

[SIXTYNINER]

Hi everyone ,
a thread to talk about if still have sense that the clean and transparent features
continue to be kept as essential on pro audio devices design (preamps apart) ,

when there are thousands of plug ins (also "free")
which are practically "flat" between the in and out ,

wouldn't it make more sense to try to make them sound more musical,
with its own personality, character, timbre , color ,
variable saturation / distorsion ,
especially those that include valves, transformers, inductors ?
( the nice old school )

thanks for any post about .
cheers

 

[living sounds]

Flat in and out and sonically transparent aren't attributes I would describe to most plugins. I usually prefer a signal without any plugin processing. I think the fundamental issue is that you need (much) higher sample rates to avoid aliasing, but real time SRC messes with the signal in a bad way. Also, for some reason many older, purely integer processes working with comparatively low bit rates (hardware but also software) often sounded more transparent to my ears than modern floating point higher bit rate plugins.

My ADT console has the most unobtrusive filters and EQs imaginable, you can cut and boost pretty much with impunity, with Qs from very low to very high. From my experience that is the most useful thing and one of my main reasons for using an analog LFC today.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Its an old analogy but I liken audio path linearity (low distortion/flat frequency response) to cooking meals beginning with a clean cooking pot. IMO we should add spice (distortion/EQ) as needed.

JR

 

[user 37518]

Hi everyone ,
a thread to talk about if still have sense that the clean and transparent features
continue to be kept as essential on pro audio devices design (preamps apart) ,

when there are thousands of plug ins (also "free")
which are practically "flat" between the in and out ,

wouldn't it make more sense to try to make them sound more musical,
with its own personality, character, timbre , color ,
variable saturation / distorsion ,
especially those that include valves, transformers, inductors ?
( the nice old school )

thanks for any post about .
cheers

What exactly is more musical?

BTW, pro audio is not only recording music, pro audio includes movies, radio, even acoustic measurement, so making preamps "musical" whatever that means, involves sacrificing all the other areas which need the cleanest, flattest response. Also, does "musical" applies to all types of music? What about classical music?

 

[pucho812]

I would also like to know what you consider musical?
Something I have seen that I consider musical is when the eq does not have the same amount of boost and cut on each band. A good example of this the Avalon 2055 where you can boost/cut the LF by 24dB, each of the 2 mid bands by 16 and HF by 20dB. that makes musical sense.

 

[SIXTYNINER]

What exactly is more musical?

BTW, pro audio is not only recording music, pro audio includes movies, radio, even acoustic measurement, so making preamps "musical" whatever that means, involves sacrificing all the other areas which need the cleanest, flattest response. Also, does "musical" applies to all types of music? What about classical music?

It is not true that also classical music is recorded and mastered with audio devices ?

And it this the same thing do it with any cheap mic vs Neumann , Schoeps ,
and Behringer or Manley preamps , eqs , comps ,?

 

[SIXTYNINER]

I would also like to know what you consider musical?
Something I have seen that I consider musical are when the eq does not have the same amount of boost and cut on each band. A good example of this the Avalon 2055 where you can boost/cut the LF by 24dB, each of the 2 mid bands by 16 and HF by 20dB. that makes musical sense.

Part of the answer is in the previous post ,

the other part is :
what difference in sound between a Yamaha C7 and a 1000 $ Chinese PIano ?
a 1957 Stratocaster and a 150 $ Squier ?
are not both Fender ?
and same for all the rest .

 

[user 37518]

It is not true that also classical music is recorded and mastered with audio devices ?

And it this the same thing do it with any cheap mic vs Neumann , Schoeps ,
and Behringer or Manley preamps , eqs , comps ,?

When you say that an amp is musical, it is the same for rock and classical? Don't know about you but I don't like to listen to a hissy, grungy, distorted orchestra. But maybe you could start by defining what exactly is a musical amplifier or eq.

 

[user 37518]

Part of the answer is in the previous post ,

the other part is :
what difference in sound between a Yamaha C7 and a 1000 $ Chinese PIano ?
a 1957 Stratocaster and a 150 $ Squier ?
are not both Fender ?
and same for all the rest .

No, that is not the same, those are musical instruments. Preamps are not, a preamps job is not to create music, but to amplify a signal, what exactly would mean that a preamp is more or less musical? Or better yet, exactly how can a preamp be more or less musical? But ok, I'll go along, what makes a Stratocaster more musical than a Squier, start by telling us what is 'musical' when it comes to sound?

To give you an example, once I asked my students when I was a teach at an audio school what is "warmth" when it comes to a vocal, some said a lack of high end, some said a lot of high end, some said no distortion, some said saturation, some said mids, there was zero consensus. Warmth along with "musical" and many other terms means absolutely nothing.

 

[SIXTYNINER]

I went ITB and man is my studio sounding sweet! Analog frontend with the ability to sum externally and I don't even bother myself with doing that lately. I buy plugins almost daily, I just enjoy loading up the box with them and with them I feel like I can turn chop suey into spaghetti, lol. Currently showing this some luv... KIT Plugins — Mo-Q. Who needs to boost/ cut 24dB anyway

Thanks for the post ,
and as for other answer also for this part of it is on 2 post above ,
and the other part here :
the topic is not about ITB vs OTB
(... one of the most "heated" discussions of the last 20 years ? )
but about clean and transparent devices vs devices that enrich the sound
making it more pleasant and interesting at listening ,

helping to make sound better tracks that already have a good quality,
but especially those that little or much are not .

 

[SIXTYNINER]

No, that is not the same, those are musical instruments. Preamps are not, a preamps job is not to create music, but to amplify a signal, what exactly would mean that a preamp is more or less musical? Or better yet, exactly how can a preamp be more or less musical? But ok, I'll go along, what makes a Stratocaster more musical than a Squier, start by telling us what is 'musical' when it comes to sound?

Thanks for the post ,
if you check the first post ,you can see that there is wrote :
"preamps apart",
then as the premps (where a michrophone have to be connected for recording)
are Excluded
the topic seems focused on eqs and comps ?

about gtr preamps / amps are they all sound in the same way ?
Mesa Boogie sound is same as 50 $ amp made in China ?

again : is Behringer same as Manley ?
which of the 2 sounds better ?
which of the 2 would you use it for a great recording ?

About the students (without wanting to teach anything) :
probably could help
make them hear a track/song processed (mixed-mastered)
by a good engineer with the best outboards available ,
and the same track/song processed with low cost devices ,

and then ask them which sounds better .
and why sound better ,
helping them to express their opinion with the usual terminology
of the recording world for the distinction between cold and warm ,
natural vs Synthetic , sterile vs organic/rich in harmonics ,
and the other various .

 

[user 37518]

Thanks for the post ,
if you check the first post ,you can see that there is wrote :
"preamps apart",
then as the premps (where a michrophone have to be connected for recording)
are Excluded
the topic seems focused on eqs and comps ?

about gtr preamps / amps are they all sound in the same way ?
Mesa Boogie sound is same as 50 $ amp made in China ?

again : is Behringer same as Manley ?
which of the 2 sounds better ?
which of the 2 would you use it for a great recording ?

You are avoiding the question. What is musical? what is a musical microphone o a musical eq or a musical compressor? You just established things sound different, I agree, what exactly is musical?

 

[SIXTYNINER]

You are avoiding the question. What is musical? what is a musical microphone o a musical eq or a musical compressor? You just established things sound different, I agree, what exactly is musical?

Do you mean that ,
Behringer sound same as Manley , Thermionic Culture , Fairman , etc.. ?
(and please do not say that you do not know what it mean)

 

[JohnRoberts]

Do you mean that ,
Behringer sound same as Manley , Thermionic Culture , Fairman , etc.. ?
(and please do not say that you do not what it mean)

I do not what it mean?

JR

PS: Operated linearly (not clipping or overloaded) most audio paths will sound alike.

 

[SIXTYNINER]

I do not what it mean?

JR

PS: Operated linearly (not clipping or overloaded) most audio paths will sound alike.

I.m.h.o.
mr "JohnRoberts"
.. know so well what it mean....

 

[iampoor1]

Do you mean that ,
Behringer sound same as Manley , Thermionic Culture , Fairman , etc.. ?
(and please do not say that you do not know what it mean)

The problem is you often ask questions while ignoring the questions people have for you. It makes any kind of conversation quite hard. No one said anything like you are suggesting.

I think there is still a market for ultra clean high quality preamps and equipment, but its not the current trend in the *music* side of pro audio, which is arguably VERY small compared to the whole market. Companies like Millenia Media are still doing quite well!

 

[user 37518]

Do you mean that ,
Behringer sound same as Manley , Thermionic Culture , Fairman , etc.. ?
(and please do not say that you do not know what it mean)

No, I don't think they sound the same, but can you now explain what musical means in an EQ, compressor o microphone?

 

[Whoops]

wouldn't it make more sense to try to make them sound more musical,
with its own personality, character, timbre , color ,
variable saturation / distorsion ,
especially those that include valves, transformers, inductors ?

I think it makes more sense yes but I was never a fan of equipment that is associated with "transparent and clean".
For me if a unit is transparent, means that it doesn't affect a sound why should I used it? I want something that affects the sound, that has character and subjectively improves it.

But personally I think it would even make much more sense at this point to stop continuously trying to re-invent the wheel and recycle all the same analog ideas/units, analog audio processors were already developed to death in the last 70 years.
Digital at this point is much more interesting, much more flexible and with less limits for creativity.

So I don't see the point to even be thinking "Analog" or discussing it in 2022,
it has been done, it was great back then, some stuff is still useful (like mic pres, compressors) and the rest is history

 

[SIXTYNINER]

The problem is you often ask questions while ignoring the questions people have for you. It makes any kind of conversation quite hard. No one said anything like you are suggesting.

I think there is still a market for ultra clean high quality preamps and equipment, but its not the current trend in the *music* side of pro audio, which is arguably VERY small compared to the whole market. Companies like Millenia Media are still doing quite well!

Thanks for post ,
you beat me on time in posting the same thing ,
(although it seemed to be implied as the thread is inside a website whose arguments are mainly of analog pro audio devices for recording ,
mixing and mastering ...)
anyway... ,
Millennia , GML , and others more that sound clean and transparent
are all well known in the context of those who deal professionally with sound ,

and if the price to pay for own them original is not low,
there are already also diy chances here and in other similar places ,
to contain the cost ,

but as they already exist and apparently already do everything necessary
why continue to focus on the same type ,
in addition to the fact that there are thousands of plug-ins also "free" ,
that sound clean and transparent ,

when around it continues to be full of dissatisfaction with digital sound
despite the significant resolution reached ,
and the primary need is to be able to have devices to improve the result
as needed ( type of music , or instrument , size / level of the problem,) ,
without going "bankrupt" .

 

[SIXTYNINER]

I think it makes more sense yes but I was never a fan of equipment that is associated with "transparent and clean".
For me if a unit is transparent, means that it doesn't affect a sound why should I used it? I want something that affects the sound, that has character and subjectively improves it.

But personally I think it would even make much more sense at this point to stop continuously trying to re-invent the wheel and recycle all the same analog ideas/units, analog audio processors were already developed to death in the last 70 years.
Digital at this point is much more interesting, much more flexible and with less limits for creativity.

So I don't see the point to even be thinking "Analog" or discussing it in 2022,
it has been done, it was great back then, some stuff is still useful (like mic pres, compressors) and the rest is history

Please correct if wrong ,
but it mean that a vintage Ampex , MCI ; Studer , tape multitrack recorder
sound worse than a digital ADA ?
and that that kind of sound
should be considered worse than the current digital ?