Clean And Transparent Analog Pro Audio Devices Still Have Sense ?

[SIXTYNINER]

Exactly my point.

Ok ,
but they only need to replicate , put on air , pre created sound ....
something like reheat an already prepared dish .

 

[user 37518]

Ok ,
but they only need to replicate , put on air , pre created sound ....
something like reheat an already prepared dish .

No, sound designers, foley artists, etc.. do not only just replicate. Audio is much more than recording music.

 

[SIXTYNINER]

No, sound designers, foley artists, etc.. do not only just replicate. Audio is much more than recording music.

Do you mean that Music is now produced and mastered
in Broadcasting tv and radio stations (where all is digital from years) ,
and on Live stages where also there is all digital from years
without hi end analog outboards
( although when the pa was full analog , however the hi end analog outboards
very little could be seen.... , except in some special cases ) ,
same for almost all the theaters ....

 

[Gold]

Live broadcast is the most hectic environment I’ve ever witnessed in audio. Everything doesn't need to be 'perfect' like in music recording. You only get one shot and there are incoming audio assets flying left and right. It's a very demanding job.

 

[JohnRoberts]

While it is more complicated than this, I tend to view audio circuit design as having two major philosophies. #1 creating novel original (sounds) music , or #2 reproducing an existing audio signal accurately.

Back in the 70s when I was designing delay based studio efx, I was definitely operating in the world of #1 creating new sounds, while working on live sound reinforcement gear the goal was #2 to accurately reproduce some existing input signal transparently.

Of course there are gray areas and lots of overlap around the edges.

Mix engineers in the studio can take a linear path and force it to make new sounds. Mixing and equalizing multiple inputs is all about creating new original content (#1).

JR

 

[SIXTYNINER]

Live broadcast is the most hectic environment I’ve ever witnessed in audio. Everything doesn't need to be 'perfect' like in music recording. You only get one shot and there are incoming audio assets flying left and right. It's a very demanding job.

And maximum respect for each of those who work there !!
whatever the task is !!

But what does it have to do with the fact that in the studio as in mastering
the need is outboards that will help improve the sound
for make it more musical and pleasant to listen ,

and that there is already more clean and transparent outboars
than what is needed ,
hundreds of plug ins (also "free") included .

 

[Gold]

But what does it have to do with the fact that in the studio as in mastering
the need is outboards that will help improve the sound
for make it more musical and pleasant to listen ,

Hardly a fact. I completely disagree with the premise. I also have a close to 30 year career mastering using 'clean and transparent' tools. I don't like obviously colored pieces. I avoid them like the plague.

 

[user 37518]

Do you mean that Music is now produced and mastered
in Broadcasting tv and radio stations (where all is digital from years) ,
and on Live stages where also there is all digital from years
without hi end analog outboards
( although when the pa was full analog , however the hi end analog outboards
very little could be seen.... , except in some special cases ) ,
same for almost all the theaters ....

Classical music still uses analog outboard in many cases (ask GML) and it is all clean, the same thing applies with many Jazz genres, folk, world music, etc.... many of those artists do not want colored gear and do not use 100% digital. When I worked in a major radio station, they had 3 recording rooms, one was big enough to fit in a PA and an audience of a few hundred, and not all was digital and it wasn't that long ago. Foley recording artists, not always use 100% digital gear, sound designers, for instance for movies, do not always use 100% digital gear.

Mastering studios still use analog gear for many types of music, and not all gear should be colored for the reasons I mentioned above.

You are only focusing on a particular genre when you say that only colored gear makes sense, and you are making generalizations.

 

[analag]

I have a tube microphone pre that I built to the cleanest of my abiltiy but everything that comes out of it is full of excess (as in phat as they like to say). I spent the morning fighting with one of my tube compressors and was rewarded with better than I hoped for. Big round sparkling with creamy smooth compression. My ADC loves it, but at the end of the day. I have never heard a sound that I was completely satisfied with.

 

[SIXTYNINER]

You are only focusing on a particular genre when you say that only colored gear makes sense, and you are making generalizations.

Are you sure that it is not the exact opposite ?

(i know very well the "G.M." recording method / concept ,
consisting of recording the "sources" much natural as possible ,
to have subsequently much room as possible for intervention ,
but this is about recording ),

I know various Engineers that work for classical music and lyrical artists
( some also very famous artist ) all record same as "G.M." ,
just trying to optimize the type of microphone depending on the instrument ,
for the best possible performance ,
but for the mix, the "concept" is so different .

just to mention one of the various "planets" in the "universe" at random :
Aphex owes much of its market success to his aural exciters / enhancers ,
used by any engineer for many years (and various today too)
to "beautify"classical ( and not ) strings , brasses , also vocal choirs , drums (snare , ride , crash ,hi hat , etc.. ) , gtrs (electric , acoutic and classic) ...... ,
and also but not least on the LR master out processing chain ,
especially the studios (but also live pa)
that could not afford expensive outboards ,

classical and lyrical music apart that is a very little part
of global music market ,
the :
Rock , Heavy Metal , Blues , Pop , HipHop ,R&B , Dance , Folk ,
Electronic (any kind of electronic) , Funk , Soul , Acid jazz , Fusion ,
but also Jazz (and not only on the Rhodes piano) ,Reggae , Ska ,
and so many other type of music ,
put chorus , phaser , flanger , (also analog like vintage Roland) ,
any kind of distortion also a combination of (and not only on gtrs) ,
and other more ... ,
also reverbs ( as also John Roberts mentioned above) are equalized
with normal or tube eq for add to the tracks more "vibes" .
that the clean and transparent outboards (& plug ins) cannot .

 

[Gold]

[removed by moderator (JR), considered offensive by the forum member attacked]

 

[JohnRoberts]

not kind...

JR

 

[cyrano]

Oh, come on John. It's a joke. It's hard to tell jokes these days, as even Ricky Gervais found out.

The fool often tells the truth. And fools have been allowed to do so for millenia.

 

[user 37518]

Are you sure that it is not the exact opposite ?

(i know very well the "G.M." recording method / concept ,
consisting of recording the "sources" much natural as possible ,
to have subsequently much room as possible for intervention ,
but this is about recording ),

I know various Engineers that work for classical music and lyrical artists
( some also very famous artist ) all record same as "G.M." ,
just trying to optimize the type of microphone depending on the instrument ,
for the best possible performance ,
but for the mix, the "concept" is so different .

just to mention one of the various "planets" in the "universe" at random :
Aphex owes much of its market success to his aural exciters / enhancers ,
used by any engineer for many years (and various today too)
to "beautify"classical ( and not ) strings , brasses , also vocal choirs , drums (snare , ride , crash ,hi hat , etc.. ) , gtrs (electric , acoutic and classic) ...... ,
and also but not least on the LR master out processing chain ,
especially the studios (but also live pa)
that could not afford expensive outboards ,

classical and lyrical music apart that is a very little part of global market ,
the :
Rock , Heavy Metal , Blues , Pop , HipHop ,R&B , Dance , Folk ,
Electronic (any kind of electronic) , Funk , Soul , Acid jazz , Fusion ,
but also Jazz (and not only on the Rhodes piano) ,Reggae , Ska ,
and so many other type of music ,
put chorus , phaser , flanger , (also analog like vintage Roland) ,
any kind of distortion also a cobination of (and not only on gtrs) ,
and other more ... ,
also reverbs ( as also John Roberts mentioned above) are equalized
with normal or tube eq for add to the tracks more "vibes" .
that the clean and transparent outboards (& plug ins) cannot .

Perhaps you could care to answer the question I've been asking you repeatedly since the beginning and which you have neglected to give a straight response: What exactly does 'musical' means when it comes to a pro audio device? Please, do not just answer with another question like asking me if I hear the difference between a Strat and a Squier, or with anecdotes of people you know, just tell me, what exactly is 'musical' when related to a pro audio device? that would be enough for me to know, however, if you care to answer more questions, I also would like to know other things related to your original post.

Regarding the title of this thread and your original post, you asked if it still makes sense to have clean and transparent pro audio devices, in order to more accurately discuss this topic, I ask you the following:

- Which criteria should be met to determine if a pro audio device is more or less musical?

- Is there an objective standard to determine if something is musical or not? meaning, is it something universal or is it subject to each individual? If its universal, which standard is it? and if its subjective to each individual, how can an audio manufacturer determine which individual standard to follow?

- Does 'musical' encompasses a specific list of attributes or properties which apply to all types music or just a particular type of music?

- Can these 'musical' properties be measured? if yes, how? if not, how can it be accurately determined if a pro audio device is musical or not so a manufacturer can make the correct decisions on how to design their equipment to fulfill the musical requirement?

- Can a pro audio device be designed with some accurately pre-defined parameters as to make it more or less musical? if so, which ones?

- If those accurately pre-defined parameters do exist so a circuit designer can make decisions, how do the degree of musicality of such parameters directly relates to electronic components and circuit design? for example, is there a relationship between musicality and P-type or N-type semiconductors? are specific circuit configurations more musical than others? for example, is a single emitter follower more or less musical than a Darlington emitter follower?

- Finally, what exactly are the consequences of using a very 'musical' pro audio device in non musical applications such as advertising or radio talk shows?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Oh, come on John. It's a joke.

I missed the joke emoticon... an insulting joke is still an insult.

It's hard to tell jokes these days, as even Ricky Gervais found out.

umm You and Ricky?

Ricky is a smart comedian and some speculate his recent inflammatory jokes were either and attempt to get publicity or showing support for Dave Chappelle. I can't read his mind.

The fool often tells the truth. And fools have been allowed to do so for millenia.

True...

JR

 

[Gold]

It was a joke. If SIXTYNINER was insulted he hasn’t said so. The important part was the last three words. Broaden your experience. The rest was a play on his name.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Maybe if it was funny?

[edit- nah, not even if it was funny, still unkind /edit]

 

[Gold]

Maybe if it was funny?

[edit- nah, not even if it was funny, still unkind /edit]

It may not be funny but it wan't unkind. Unless SIXTYNINER refers to his date of birth I think I got the reference right.

 

[SIXTYNINER]

- Which criteria should be met to determine if a pro audio device is more or less musical?

...Really it is so difficult ?

... Could it be the one that at the output simply makes what is fed in at the input sound better ?

Ps:
some random example ,
why most of keyboardists ( and musicians that play other instrument types)
much prefer the sound of vintage Rhodes electric pianos
than any other replication (hardware and software ),
same for the Hammond organs ,

why many guitar players replace the factory standard pickups
with others that make sound better their new just purchased electric guitars ,
( ... something like the difference of a car with or without the turbo ? )

 

[user 37518]

...Really it is so difficult ?

... Could it be the one that at the output simply makes what is fed in at the input sound better ?

It is so easy that you can't even define exactly what it is, yet you use the term musical like it means something. Sound better also is subjective, I am sure that what sounds good to me doesn't sound good to you, and still I don't know what the term 'musical' relates to all you have mentioned...

You still give me analogies of different instruments and refuse to give me a straight answer, a pro audio device is not a musical instrument, give me a definition of the term "musical" when it comes to a pro audio device,