john12ax7
Well-known member
One way to get a little more loudness is to intentionally clip an A/D converter. Some converters handle this much better than others. For the ones that excel at this, what is the internal electronics mechanism used?
Clipping Comverters During Mastering
- Thread starter john12ax7
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I can't address which ones excel but most A/D modulator drivers have clamp diodes to the internal +/-5V analog rails to prevent over-driving the modulator input pins.
I'm putting the final touches prior to layout on a variable clipper now.
[caveat] I am not a fan of clipping high quality audio paths.
Amplifiers users have long tolerated brief clipping events**** so they can increase the "actual" loudness (turn up amp volume past clipping for higher power output). The secret to avoid bad sonics is to clip cleanly with very fast recovery and no sticking overhang or artifacts.
Clipping an A/D convertor introduces another factor to consider. Hard clipping the audio generates higher frequency components that will likely need to be filtered out to prevent aliasing during sampling. In practice different convertor topology could require different treatments depending on where the clipping occurs.
In theory a digital code tweak that detects an overflow register to indicate digital clipping, then rounds the signal down to full scale. This could still introduce extra HF content on playback depending on how severe the overload is.
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Kind of on topic, Midas digital console mic preamps incorporated an analog soft clipper in the analog mic preamp stage to gracefully deal with signal overload. Many operators embraced this capability (probably without understanding what it was actually doing).
JR
**** I have experienced A/B listening tests where the unwashed listeners preferred the sound of amplifiers allowed to clip, vs a decent clip limiter (like DDT). Clearly louder is perceived as sounding better.
john12ax7
Well-known member
How does it sound?
living sounds
Well-known member
I've owned a few of the mastering converters people like(d) to clip and never saw the point of it. Clipping sometimes works, but it can be done in the digital domain. In the analog domain there are better controlled processes availible, too.
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The only time I do it is when I know I need stupid level. Getting the level up using a few different things sounds better than trying to get it all from one thing. Under normal circumstances I do it all with a digital limiter.
GeorgeToledo
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These are zener diode clippers.
I think some people still use them. I’m not personally a fan.
GeorgeToledo
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In most situations it’s the analog stage prior to the converters that is clipping. If you did get an “illegal signal”, most converters now do a high enough upsampling level that it wouldn’t result in aliasing.
terry setter
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Please remember, the loudness wars are (hopefully) behind us. Primarily due to the preponderance of streaming services, pros have FINALLY banded together to try to arrive at realistic volume standards. Here's an excellent video that tells what the new level standards are, clarifies the volume vs. loudness concept, and mentions some of the software that's now available to achieve success on the various media.
"Why?", you might ask (we were having so much fun...). Well, because the various delivery services use varying amounts of compression (with varying thresholds), so if you mix "really loud", your work might hit the compression thresholds so early that your mix is played 6dB (or more!) below material that is only very slightly compressed. You might remember that in the old days, we put out disks marked "For Radio Play Only". That meant that those disks were not compressed to the degree that the records that were sold at the record store were. Again, that's because the radio stations often had 20dB of compression in order to fit their program material into the mere 40+ dB dynamic range that was available on American FM broadcast. When a highly compressed mix went to to the transmitter, it hit the compressors first, and the loud stuff shriveled.
"Why?", you might ask (we were having so much fun...). Well, because the various delivery services use varying amounts of compression (with varying thresholds), so if you mix "really loud", your work might hit the compression thresholds so early that your mix is played 6dB (or more!) below material that is only very slightly compressed. You might remember that in the old days, we put out disks marked "For Radio Play Only". That meant that those disks were not compressed to the degree that the records that were sold at the record store were. Again, that's because the radio stations often had 20dB of compression in order to fit their program material into the mere 40+ dB dynamic range that was available on American FM broadcast. When a highly compressed mix went to to the transmitter, it hit the compressors first, and the loud stuff shriveled.
Any examples of converter clipping from respected pros? I’m genuinely curious.
I kinda thought professionals quit the loud war with the advent of Spotify and other platforms regulating LUFS?
It’s not that hard to hit -14lufs. And then you can forget this somewhat made up idea that people (outside of a few genres) ever cared about loudness.
It’s also really easy to get extremely loud with modern software limiters. Sometimes I can’t believe how loud I can get Fabfilter L2 before I start hearing bothersome artifacts. Hell at this point it’d be more fun and challenging to hit industry standard levels fully analog through some of the new fast analog limiters stacked and meticulously set.
So all that is to say. What do the A/D clippers sound like? The only reason I can imagine to use one is because they sound good not to achieve more loudness.
I kinda thought professionals quit the loud war with the advent of Spotify and other platforms regulating LUFS?
It’s not that hard to hit -14lufs. And then you can forget this somewhat made up idea that people (outside of a few genres) ever cared about loudness.
It’s also really easy to get extremely loud with modern software limiters. Sometimes I can’t believe how loud I can get Fabfilter L2 before I start hearing bothersome artifacts. Hell at this point it’d be more fun and challenging to hit industry standard levels fully analog through some of the new fast analog limiters stacked and meticulously set.
So all that is to say. What do the A/D clippers sound like? The only reason I can imagine to use one is because they sound good not to achieve more loudness.
I don't, but I produce and mix, albeit specific genres. I've also worked with some sought after mastering engineers and know a few personally. It's been brought up but never discussed in detail. That's why my post was framed as a question.
Spotify is not a format. Streaming services can and do change their algorithms. Leaving the level low and hoping for the best isn’t a good strategy. With a loud mix the worst that can happen is that it will sit at the same volume as a lower level mix. The other way around isn’t as desirable. Not all genres need to be slammed but some do.
ruairioflaherty
Well-known member
Full time Mastering Engineer here working at a high level in L.A. - Lana Del Rey, Taylor Swift, Los Lobos (Grammy Winning), Rufus Wainwright etc etc.
The loudness wars are not behind us, in fact things are louder now than they ever have been in my 23 years of mastering.
Pros have definitely not banded to gather to agree anything, there are no standards and modern pop/hip hop/RnB and rock averages around -7 LUFS integrated but I have shipped records as loud as -3 LUF integrated (the mix was louder!).
People like Ian Shepherd have very little to do with the functioning industry making popular music, despite his good intentions.
I agree - my clients want louder and LOUDER, regardless of the penalty that happens when streaming. Music sounds good when it’s pushed to a point, then your toast isn’t brown, it’s burned!
I try to teach my clients that if I have to clip more than 1 or 2 dB to get a master as loud as they want it, their production and mix aren’t what they hoped for. Basically that particular song is only meant to be so loud without falling apart. I tell them the experience will up their game and that it’s not a mastering issue. I haven’t lost too many clients… :-/
This is especially true for younger producer/mixers who learned by watching too many bad YouTube “tutorials” by influencers.
I try to teach my clients that if I have to clip more than 1 or 2 dB to get a master as loud as they want it, their production and mix aren’t what they hoped for. Basically that particular song is only meant to be so loud without falling apart. I tell them the experience will up their game and that it’s not a mastering issue. I haven’t lost too many clients… :-/
This is especially true for younger producer/mixers who learned by watching too many bad YouTube “tutorials” by influencers.
john12ax7
Well-known member
This is a good analogy. Some converters seem to make good toast, while others go straight to burnt.
jeremynothman
Active member
Thanks for that input. I work a lot as an assistant to a mix and mastering engineer who is constantly insisting that they are behind us, and who generally masters to -14dB LUFS, but it doesn’t represent what either of us see when checking reference material.
I do think that some genres sound better pushed, but rarely do I think a track sounds best at -7dB LUFS. Obviously people having clipped has become part of a genre’s sound, as much as the hardware L2 was part of the sound of early 2000s masters.
The question for me is, what is it in terms of sound that you hear as beneficial about clipping as opposed to limiting? I’ve been mixing some pop/hip-hop of late, and I’m trying to understand why I should want to clip.
A decade ago, I knew why I did it on less transient sounds (to get a distorted bass sound, for example), but obviously clipping a whole mix or subgroup is a different thing.
Also, is anyone here then using clipping plugins (eg. SIR, Kazrog, that new acustica one), or is it “an analogue only trick”?
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