Compact desktop line mixer?

[ruffrecords]

They aren’t quite as common, but there are plenty of stereo-in spring & plate reverbs, as well as analog choruses (i.e., Dimension D)

I agree there are plenty of reverbs with stereo inputs but that does not make them true stereo - in fact I would question the whole concept of a true stereo reverb especially when used with a panned mono signal. They are all two channel devices with some cross coupling between them.

, and even some newer analog delays are true-stereo.

Can you give me a couple of examples please

Plus - as @Brian Roth mentioned, it gives you the option to create a stereo cue mix or any other stereo sub-mix

I also find a stereo cue mix somewhat questionable. It is hard enough to create a cue mix for musos in mono that they all like. Making it stereo just gives them something else to disagree about . OTOH for a small desk top line mixer I guess we are mainly talking mixdown and the occasional overdub so perhaps only one person to please

Cheers

Ian

 

[MidnightArrakis]

Quick comments after a quick look.

1. Post fader branch needs to be after the fader buffer.

2. Branch from main mix path to monitor selector switch should probably be after after the 990s ? Avoids any oddball loading of the master fader.

Somehow we need a way to collect the various revisions into some "pile" to minimize having them spread out over a dozen pages of postings. I kept strict collections of all doc revs back when I was building studios and video production facilities.

Bri

[Somehow we need a way to collect the various revisions into some "pile" to minimize having them spread out over a dozen pages of postings] -- This is my exact reason of contention for -- NOT -- building most of the items discussed on this forum!!! While so many of the circuit and project ideas discussed within most of the threads on here are generally excellent in their nature, having all of the improvements and revisions spread out over 25-pages in a thread by at least 10 different members, just becomes too much of a daunting task of its own to both collect and compile all of these varied bits and pieces of information all together to a point where everything is in one final place and everything also finally makes sense!!! There somehow needs to be a "something" constructed on this forum so the evolutionary nature of a circuit and/or project development can be all compiled and placed within a single place, so anyone interested in building such circuit/project can have easy and immediate access to all of the evolutionary changes that have taken place along the way.

From what I have seen take place on this forum that basically "kind of" works is that the -- OP -- of a thread becomes the responsible party and they keep all of the evolutionary revisions and updated posted in their very first posting. Then, when their thread finally reaches its own conclusion 25-pages later, they post a final response on the threads' last page and refer everyone back to the first response on the first page to where all of the final revisions/updates have been collected, finalized and posted.

Just my inflationary devalued 2-cents worth!!!

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[MidnightArrakis]

Damn....that's a budget buster! $605 (plus shipping) for eight input panels....

Thanks for the working FPD file. I'll fiddle with it.

Bri

[I'll fiddle with it] -- Are you secretly "Uncle Ernie"??? (From "Tommy -- The Rock Opera" by The WHO).



>> Start-time moved up to "Fiddle About":


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[ruffrecords]

Damn....that's a budget buster! $605 (plus shipping) for eight input panels....

Thanks for the working FPD file. I'll fiddle with it.

Bri

There are discounts for modest quantities so not quite as bad as 8 times the 1-off price but still not cheap. If you were to concatenate 8 panels into 1 large one this price would come down significantly but construction would be a nightmare. Schaeffer and its US partners are probably the most expensive manufacturers of custom panels but their quality is second to none. Frank Rollen on the EU mainland is very competitive as is Meface in the UK. I am sure there are similar conpanies on your side of the pond.

When all is said and done, small quantity mechanics remains one of the most expensive elements of a mixer design.

Cheers

Ian

 

[OneRoomStudio]

I agree there are plenty of reverbs with stereo inputs but that does not make them true stereo - in fact I would question the whole concept of a true stereo reverb especially when used with a panned mono signal. They are all two channel devices with some cross coupling between them.

Can you give me a couple of examples please

I also find a stereo cue mix somewhat questionable. It is hard enough to create a cue mix for musos in mono that they all like. Making it stereo just gives them something else to disagree about . OTOH for a small desk top line mixer I guess we are mainly talking mixdown and the occasional overdub so perhaps only one person to please

Cheers

Ian

For true-stereo analog delays, off the top of my head - the Moog Matriarch has a great true stereo BBD delay (with parameters that can be modulated!), the Walrus Audio Meraki is true stereo, and the old Dynacord SRS-56 is true stereo. I’m sure there are others I’m not thinking of. Point being - there are plenty of stereo outboard processors out there that I and others might want to use. Also, stereo headphones are a big deal - dense mixes can be hard to create mono headphone mixes out of. Panning can make all the difference, especially for vocalists.

 

[rh001]

Main reason there are no affordable small "desktop" mixers is because life has become expensive due to inflation and population growth. You want something in the $1000 to $1500 range...consider that is about the price (in Los Angeles) for 1 dental crown. Starbucks charges $7 for a sort of yuchy bacon, egg and potato wrap and they won't ask if you want sriracha with that, they wait for you to ask, and hope you don't.

Designing and building oneself, if one can, is the only way to go.

 

[OneRoomStudio]

Last comment on the stereo bus for @ruffrecords - Brian Neunaber wrote a great blog post on his (now-defunct) website about how stereo inputs are valid, even when crosstalk is present in reverb - and in fact, why that’s exactly what you would want (as opposed to totally separate processing per channel): http://web.archive.org/web/20210624...ats-the-deal-with-summed-input-stereo-effects

 

[MidnightArrakis]

I just recalled one. Decades ago I built a semi-clone of the Aphex Exciter. It was stereo in/out and was fed from a stereo aux on the MCI desk.

Bri

[I built a semi-clone of the Aphex Exciter] -- You wouldn't still have the schematics that you built your clone from, would you???

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[Newmarket]

Main reason there are no affordable small "desktop" mixers is because life has become expensive due to inflation and population growth. You want something in the $1000 to $1500 range...consider that is about the price (in Los Angeles) for 1 dental crown. Starbucks charges $7 for a sort of yuchy bacon, egg and potato wrap and they won't ask if you want sriracha with that, they wait for you to ask, and hope you don't.

Designing and building oneself, if one can, is the only way to go.

Rather bizarre post tbh. There is still a choice of standard desktop mixers. The original question was about dedicated line input mixers. The reason lies in the evolution of audio tech.
Not bizarrely due to "population growth".
fwiw Population growth may be required to support an increasingly older non-wealth creating demographic.

 

[Brian Roth]

[I built a semi-clone of the Aphex Exciter] -- You wouldn't still have the schematics that you built your clone from, would you???

/

That was over 40 years ago! It was a pair of 12 dB/octave (18?) high pass filters with selectable corner frequencies and built into a pair of SCAMP rack modules.

Bri

 

[OneRoomStudio]

Ok, here is an updated (and less lazy) revision. And, per @Brian Roth's request, it has proper revision nomenclature. I still need to add a simple unbalanced stereo "external input," and a headphone control/amp.

 

[Brian Roth]

Ok, here is an updated (and less lazy) revision. And, per @Brian Roth's request, it has proper revision nomenclature. I still need to add a simple unbalanced stereo "external input," and a headphone control/amp.
View attachment 143740

I made a new folder on my desktop and am storing copies of your diagrams there with file names which include dates to help me keep track.

@MidnightArrakis had an interesting idea....collect your revisions and add them to your original post.

I'll look at this new diagram later today and add comments.

Bri

 

[OneRoomStudio]

Ok, it was bugging me that it was incomplete, so here's version "0.6," which includes the ext-in and headphone section. Feature-wise, I think this about sums up (pun intended) my wishes. What do others think?

 

[Estomagado]

I have a general question about the stereo AUX send. Are there actually any truly stereo FX units with analogue inputs? The only ones I have ever seen with stereo inputs simply mono the inputs before effecting them complete with pseudo stereo for the output.

Cheers

Ian

Wasn't the old Yamaha SPX990 truly stereo?
I mean, most of the effects were mono in --> pseudo stereo out. But some of them were not. Indeed, in some settings you could run the two halves as two separate, non interfering mono effetcs simultaneously.

a mixer with inserts/direct outputs + an audio device + a bunch of cables?
my Soundcraft BVE100 came for a very reasonable price, I spent more for cables and the 8-channel DI box :-|

I'm with @ale47p on this one.

Isn't a Yamaha MG series enough for this?
Just ignore the mic pres.

You can find an MG16 on eBay for USD600

https://www.ebay.com/itm/355988998573

EDIT:

There are plenty of cheap prosumer mixers out there from Yamaha, Mackie, A&H, etc...but those all have far more features than I want, and implement them cheaply (more things to fail, more cheap parts in the signal path, etc). Something like the SSL SiX gets close, but costs too much for what it is.

Yeah, my bad, did not read that thoroughly.
And, of course, it IS a fun project, as someone suggested.
But, still, sometimes you have to compromise if the "not great" that is available is "good enough".

 

[Brian Roth]

Ok, it was bugging me that it was incomplete, so here's version "0.6," which includes the ext-in and headphone section. Feature-wise, I think this about sums up (pun intended) my wishes. What do others think?
View attachment 143745

I like the selector for multiple speakers....can never have enough! Speaking of selectors, it's cool having an unbalanced 1/8" "ext" jack for guest phone/whatever sources on the front panel, but I would think at least more input should be added so I can hear playback of my mix from my Ampex ATR-100 <g> after I'm done recording.

EDIT: I forgot to ask....are we totally giving up on the input trim, as found on the x-desk and LILO?

Bri

PS, I got tired of doing pan/tilt/zoom of the diagram on my screen, so I printed it out. One page was too small to easily read, so I did a "four panel" print and taped the pages together so I could work at my dining table. I'm serious about this! lol

 

[Brian Roth]

Ok, it was bugging me that it was incomplete, so here's version "0.6," which includes the ext-in and headphone section. Feature-wise, I think this about sums up (pun intended) my wishes. What do others think?
View attachment 143745

An elephant in the room remains.....Solo.

1. Simplest....mono AFL like found on even the cheapest mixer.

2. Stereo AFL after the pan pot as found on the SSL X-desk, Speck LILO and Speck "via Fader 10+Mix".

3. Mono PFL is way down the list but useful in broadcast applications to allow cuing up the next source to be played. Maybe a 3-way toggle: AFL-NONE-PFL......

4. Stereo solo-in-place ("destructive").

For AFL or PFL an indicator by each switch as well on the master module and/or meterbridge (if that exists).

Feature Creep <g> for stereo AFL: a pot to allow the a variable amount of the 2-mix signal to be dailed in "behind" the solo signal itself. Gives a bit of "context". I most recently saw that on an API Legacy desk, but also on a few other desks in the past.

Bri

 

[MidnightArrakis]

I like the selector for multiple speakers....can never have enough! Speaking of selectors, it's cool having an unbalanced 1/8" "ext" jack for guest phone/whatever sources on the front panel, but I would think at least more input should be added so I can hear playback of my mix from my Ampex ATR-100 <g> after I'm done recording.

EDIT: I forgot to ask....are we totally giving up on the input trim, as found on the x-desk and LILO?

Bri

PS, I got tired of doing pan/tilt/zoom of the diagram on my screen, so I printed it out. One page was too small to easily read, so I did a "four panel" print and taped the pages together so I could work at my dining table. I'm serious about this! lol

[so I printed it out. One page was too small to easily read, so I did a "four panel" print and taped the pages together] -- I don't have that problem as I -- STILL HAVE -- a Hewlett-Packard 7570A "D-Size" pen-plotter that is sitting right here behind me as I write this message!!! Well.....I truly can't say that I "don't" have a problem -- per se' -- in that I would need some type of a "USB-2-Printer" cable along with the updated drivers and software to get this thing to operate with today's computer-technology. But, "back-in-the-day" when I was doing mechanical design and drafting work here-at-home for defense contractors, my 7570A was constantly chunking out a TON of "D-Size" drawings on a daily basis!!!

One project I did for a local defense contractor was the wiring diagram of 4-racks of custom-designed and built "Communications Interception Equipment" for the NSA (which at the time, was only about 5-miles from where I lived!!!). That project alone consisted of 24 - "D-Size" sheets that had to be all taped together (just like you!!!) on a huge wall. The total size of all of my drawings together was nearly 8-feet high X 12-feet wide when they were all taped-up together on an engineering wall!!!

>> YES!!! THE EIGHTIES!!!.....

-------------------------------HEWLETT-PACKARD 7570A PEN-PLOTTER

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[ruffrecords]

For true-stereo analog delays, off the top of my head - the Moog Matriarch has a great true stereo BBD delay (with parameters that can be modulated!), the Walrus Audio Meraki is true stereo, and the old Dynacord SRS-56 is true stereo. I’m sure there are others I’m not thinking of. Point being - there are plenty of stereo outboard processors out there that I and others might want to use. Also, stereo headphones are a big deal - dense mixes can be hard to create mono headphone mixes out of. Panning can make all the difference, especially for vocalists.

Good points. I will check out those reverb units.

Which reminds me, the mixer will need some AUX returns. Are you sure one stereo return will be enough?

Cheers

Ian

 

[Matt Syson]

The picture of the HP pen plotter takes me back to my Calrec days where there was a plotter like this running effectively 24/7 printing out desk schematics.
Someone would come in and feed it with new pens regularly and the HP rep was amazed at the number of hours it was putting in.

 

[Brian Roth]

[so I printed it out. One page was too small to easily read, so I did a "four panel" print and taped the pages together] -- I don't have that problem as I -- STILL HAVE -- a Hewlett-Packard 7570A "D-Size" pen-plotter that is sitting right here behind me as I write this message!!! Well.....I truly can't say that I "don't" have a problem -- per se' -- in that I would need some type of a "USB-2-Printer" cable along with the updated drivers and software to get this thing to operate with today's computer-technology.

Now that you mention it, I have a Houston Instruments D-size plotter (model forgotten) sitting in my garage. Haven't used it in decades. No pens, RS-232 interface, no drivers. When I was using it, I was running DOS on a 386 (486?) PC. Don't know why I have kept it!

The few times per year I need large-sized prints, I use the local "blueprint" company. They have jumbo laser(?) printers.

https://salinablue.com/

Bri