covid politics

[JohnRoberts]

The amount of personal attacks suggest a lack of substantive issues.

In case it isn't clear, it is bad practice to stir up public demand for remedies that do not exist yet. It scares the sheeple and wastes time and effort answering more questions.

At least you are keeping these examples in the right thread.

JR

 

[hodad]

The amount of personal attacks suggest a lack of substantive issues.

In case it isn't clear, it is bad practice to stir up public demand for remedies that do not exist yet. It scares the sheeple and wastes time and effort answering more questions.

At least you are keeping these examples in the right thread.

JR

If you consider it a personal attack when you're called out for sloppy and inconsistent arguments, so be it.  That's on you. 

Honestly, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by remedies that do not exist.  Do you mean testing?  The testing that other countries seem to have plenty of, and yet Trump's govt. is still incapable of delivering on a proper scale?  Or are you talking about the unproven "remedies" that Trump has stirred up so much support for (hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin)? 

 

[scott2000]

Interesting pic

 

[JohnRoberts]

For some unintended positive consequences from the extreme COVID measures, murder rates and crime statistics are down in a number of countries. Some of this may be Police declining to engage about petty misdemeanors but vastly reduced murder statistics is not as easily explained.  Some are worried about increased domestic violence from same bad actors picking targets closer to home, so we'll see.

===

For some speculation, farmers are dumping crops they cannot sell because of restaurant demand falling off a cliff. Thousands of gallons of milk dumped into waste pools. Pork bellies rendered down to less valuable lard instead of bacon because of reduced demand.  My speculation is... does this mean we are eating healthier, and/or less?  It is no secret we were eating way too much before.

I apologize for all my sloppy thinking.  8)

JR

PS: While related indirectly,  I feel that I need to compliment SF leaders for outlawing reusable shopping bags because of the COVID transmission health risk. I won't even take the easy opportunity for cheap shot, and applaud common sense whenever I see it.

 

[Scodiddly]

I'm OK with Trump being a salesman, of promoting the country, of trying to motivate people to improve things.

But as any legitimate salesman knows, at some point you actually have to deliver a product.

 

[crazydoc]

Now I'm really scared: Trump said the facts would determine the next move, though he reiterated his desire to re-open the economy. Asked what metrics he would use to make his judgment, he pointed at his forehead: “The metrics right here, that’s my metrics.”

https://www.physiciansweekly.com/using-his-own-metrics/

 

[crazydoc]

And here's something to upset the privacy freaks (and some of the rest of us too): Apple and Google are building a coronavirus tracking system into iOS and Android

https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/10/21216484/google-apple-coronavirus-contract-tracing-bluetooth-location-tracking-data-app

 

[john12ax7]

Interesting pic

The stock market was way overvalued even before corona.  Inflating it now does not seem a good long term solution.

The economy will be in bad shape for a while.  Giving the middle class some money is good,  but most of the bailout will go to those at the top,  yet again,  and will be paid for by the middle class,  yet again. The net wealth gap will increase even further after this.

Is anyone else concerned about this?

 

[kambo]

The stock market was way overvalued even before corona.  Inflating it now does not seem a good long term solution.

The economy will be in bad shape for a while.  Giving the middle class some money is good,  but most of the bailout will go to those at the top,  yet again,  and will be paid for by the middle class,  yet again. The net wealth gap will increase even further after this.

Is anyone else concerned about this?

i think u r forgetting, we are living in the USA...
how do you even think government gonna bail out the poors, and the gap will decrease  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

 

[hodad]

So I was thinking again about Trump "negotiating."  Maybe looking at Trump's weaknesses as a leader through the prism of what he undoubtedly considers one of his great strengths would give some insight.

Initially here, the question was asked, "Whom is he negotiating against?"  The better question might be, "Whom is he negotiating for?" 
Is he negotiating for healthcare workers, trying to keep them safe and  well equipped to fight this battle?

Is he negotiating for grocery store and delivery workers, underpaid, underprotected "heroes" in a country that hasn't seen a minimum wage increase in more than a decade?

Is he negotiating for the health and safety of the American people when he privately suggests that maybe the coronavirus should just be allowed to "wash over" the entire country?

Is he negotiating for transparent and efficient governance when he fires the IG who was to oversee stimulus funds and makes an undisguised power grab to gain control of the funds with less transparency? 

 

[JohnRoberts]

The stock market was way overvalued even before corona.  Inflating it now does not seem a good long term solution.

I have been saying this for years, but we have precious few alternate asset classes that are safer, or deliver decent return.  I find it instructive that Warren Buffett is not buying stocks because he thinks they are too expensive, but he can get better deals lending money to desperate companies.

IMO we never fully normalized after the credit collapse of 2007/2008.  +1 injecting more liquidity now seems a little risky, but the alternative is a recession that makes the great recession, look like a cake walk.

The economy will be in bad shape for a while.

Return to normalcy is far from easily predictable. It is clear the longer we keep it shuttered, the harder it will be to get it going full strength again. I expect the new economy will be different in several ways, some better some worse.

Giving the middle class some money is good,  but most of the bailout will go to those at the top,  yet again,  and will be paid for by the middle class,  yet again. The net wealth gap will increase even further after this.

this sounds like a partisan talking point, I guess it depends on how you define the "top".

Is anyone else concerned about this?

I do not support dropping helicopter money... central bankers and governments believe their own BS, and think the strategy will work/is working, because they have been getting away with it for over a decade, so far.

Since I am the optimist here I do not expect a total economic collapse (or hope I will die before that happens.).

JR

 

[iturnknobs]

CEO of Smithfield Foods:

"It is impossible to keep our grocery stores stocked if our plants are not running," he said. "These facility closures will also have severe, perhaps disastrous, repercussions for many in the supply chain."

Sioux Falls, SD meat processing plant closes, having half of the state's cases in one meat packaging factory(which supplies 4-5 percent of all U.S. pork). Here's a state without shelter-in-place orders.  Political affiliation? One guess. The rural isolation idea is not working well for those on the right and it's being proven day by day that we're all "connected" in this thing(but they are insistent on being right: pun intended). The stupidity will continue, it would appear. Today is the day for the great re-opening with packed churches that Trump wanted. Let's be Republican and go for it. 'Murica.

 

[JohnRoberts]

CEO of Smithfield Foods:

"It is impossible to keep our grocery stores stocked if our plants are not running," he said. "These facility closures will also have severe, perhaps disastrous, repercussions for many in the supply chain."

Sioux Falls, SD meat processing plant closes, having half of the state's cases in one meat packaging factory(which supplies 4-5 percent of all U.S. pork). Here's a state without shelter-in-place orders.  Political affiliation? One guess. The rural isolation idea is not working well for those on the right and it's being proven day by day that we're all "connected" in this thing(but they are insistent on being right: pun intended). The stupidity will continue, it would appear. Today is the day for the great re-opening with packed churches that Trump wanted. Let's be Republican and go for it. 'Murica.

Multiple different meat processing plants have suffered brief shut downs when infected workers are discovered. They generally reopen after a serious scrub and disinfection cycle. Hopefully PPE for workers, and fever screening are involved (although fever screening may not be enough with symptomless spread).

The tight working conditions are not conductive to social distancing.  Food supply seems like a critical resource worthy of extra effort and attention.  Some food processors are not set up to package the final product for retail sales so they are often discarding palatable food in bulk packaging.

======

For a political angle on reopening the economy, imagine if we shut down the all the highways to prevent deadly auto/truck accidents. The first death after the highways are reopened will get blamed on the unlucky official who reopened the highways.  :

I expect we will still lose patients, in hopefully more modest numbers after the economy is reopened.  There is still much work to be done. A couple different areas are performing random testing to see how many people were infected without symptoms or only a minor sickness.  This will be important to better understand the community spread. I have heard speculation that the multiple nursing homes that became local hotbeds were likely infected by symptomless workers. 

---
While I have been a little disappointed with the unavailability of n95 masks, and high price now for "dust masks", we are still instructed to wear dust masks. I initially wrote this off as a psychological "feel good" exercise. Because it mainly slows down transmission from infected people. Now connecting a few dots, if people are infected without symptoms they can be inadvertently spreading the virus without knowing it, so wearing dust masks can reduce that transmission vector ( I have some dust masks on order, we'll see if they ever show up. The TP I ordered a few weeks ago is still "delayed"). 

Everybody be well and stay safe...

JR

PS: I have mentioned this before but extreme contact tracing seems like cracking the door open to further diminish personal privacy. I think Bill Gates is pushing for a global immunization registry. This seems like another  step down the slippery slope (that we are already on).

 

[crazydoc]

if people are infected without symptoms they can be inadvertently spreading the virus without knowing it, so wearing dust masks can reduce that transmission vector

hmmm - only 4 patients, but....  in conclusion, both surgical and cotton masks seem to be ineffective in preventing the dissemination of SARS–CoV-2 from the coughs of patients with COVID-19 to the environment and external mask surface.

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison

 

[JohnRoberts]

hmmm - only 4 patients, but....  in conclusion, both surgical and cotton masks seem to be ineffective in preventing the dissemination of SARS–CoV-2 from the coughs of patients with COVID-19 to the environment and external mask surface.

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison

That supports the early dismissal of non  n95 masks as being ineffective.

Of course any mask probably makes some beneficial difference however modest, but should not give wearers a false sense of security.

I will wear a dust mask for my weekly shopping trip later this week, mainly to not scare my fellow shoppers. I have no expectation it will protect me from anything other than dust.  8)

ASSuming the health professionals already know (suspected?) this, that reinforces the mask wearing advice as a feel good exercise. If n95 masks were widely available that would be the more logical advice.

Everybody be safe, and "feel good".

JR

 

[crazydoc]

That supports the early dismissal of non  n95 masks as being ineffective.

Of course any mask probably makes some beneficial difference however modest, but should not give wearers a false sense of security.

I will wear a dust mask for my weekly shopping trip later this week, mainly to not scare my fellow shoppers. I have no expectation it will protect me from anything other than dust.  8)

ASSuming the health professionals already know (suspected?) this, that reinforces the mask wearing advice as a feel good exercise. If n95 masks were widely available that would be the more logical advice.

Everybody be safe, and "feel good".

JR

No one has said the mask will protect the wearer - it's supposed to catch the possible viral particles and  infected secretions of the wearer and keep them from being spewed into the air to protect the people around him. But I suppose this study notwithstanding,  it will catch those big loogies.

But you're right- it's mostly feelgood.

 

[john12ax7]

this sounds like a partisan talking point, I guess it depends on how you define the "top".

Why is it partisan? Both parties are complicit in giving corporate bailouts. Capitalism means you take the profits and the losses.  Unfortunately the precedent now is if you are a big enough,  you can take as much risk as you want knowing the government (really the taxpayers)  will cover any losses. This shouldn't be acceptable to anybody.

Airlines have had record profits fur years.  It's a cyclical business in regular times,  the responsible thing would be to save some.  Instead most went to share buybacks. Why should the taxpayer cover their irresponsibilty?

 

[iturnknobs]

The tight working conditions are not conducive to social distancing.

...a cavalier attitude towards the mitigation tool itself is not conducive to containing virus spread(R).

For a political angle on reopening the economy, imagine if we shut down the all the highways to prevent deadly auto/truck accidents. The first death after the highways are reopened will get blamed on the unlucky official who reopened the highways.  :

I agree with your point, but there WERE (only)150 vehicular deaths per day in our country(I’m not driving anymore). We were at 2000+ virus attributed deaths per day even with shelter in place mitigation. Imagine the numbers without. Imagine how much lower the number could have been, but then it would have been a “deep state” conspiracy against Cheeto-lini.  :'(

The TP I ordered a few weeks ago is still "delayed”.

Waffle stomp. Urban dictionary.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Why is it partisan? Both parties are complicit in giving corporate bailouts. Capitalism means you take the profits and the losses.  Unfortunately the precedent now is if you are a big enough,  you can take as much risk as you want knowing the government (really the taxpayers)  will cover any losses. This shouldn't be acceptable to anybody.

Thanks for explaining capitalism to me.... You appear to be describing "crony capitalism" that I have openly ranted against.

Depending on how we count I have started 3 or 4 businesses (one still operating).  Never got a penny of government support, but while president of a company we applied for a SBA loan (we didn't get it).  This was one of the old school SBA loans where you actually have to pay it back, and the government only serves as partial guarantor on the loan.

Airlines have had record profits fur years.  It's a cyclical business in regular times,  the responsible thing would be to save some.

airlines have been a crappy business for years (decades?), now with nobody traveling  they are even crappier. I wouldn't mind some creative destruction allowing weak sisters to fail, but apparently government thinks they can save everybody without picking winners and losers.

Instead most went to share buybacks.

this is being done by way too many companies in almost all industries for way too long. I consider this a financial engineering trick to artificially increase apparent per share earnings by reducing the number of shares outstanding (smaller denominator).  I blame the too easy lending, which right now looks like it is getting even easier, for facilitating this.

Why should the taxpayer cover their irresponsibilty?

We should not....but why single out airlines? To point fingers at irresponsible behavior how about central banks pumping too much liquidity into markets (since 2007-2008).  The global economy is arguably a bubble with coordinated liquidity injections by all central bankers.  :

I am a chronic optimist but this could end badly... I hope it doesn't.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

...a cavalier attitude towards the mitigation tool itself is not conducive to containing virus spread(R).

Not sure I understand your critique... I was making a factual observation....

FWIW I suspect some food processors have excess capacity with so many restaurants closed, so don't mind taking a short breather to close and disinfect plants here and there.  I expect wider availability of PPE for workers, routine fever monitoring (that may not work), and antibody testing when it becomes available. I consider our food supply chain worthy of preserving.

Speaking of PPE, I just picked up a single discarded glove from my yard by the road, not the typical discarded debris I find, but a sign of the times. 

I agree with your point, but there WERE (only)150 vehicular deaths per day in our country(I’m not driving anymore). We were at 2000+ virus attributed deaths per day even with shelter in place mitigation. Imagine the numbers without.

this was a metaphor for the lose-lose aspect of any deaths after restarting the economy, being blamed on the restart.

Imagine how much lower the number could have been, but then it would have been a “deep state” conspiracy against Cheeto-lini.  :'(

Not sure I follow but I have been accused of sloppy thinking...  :  (I recognize "Cheeto-lini" as a pejorative reference to POTUS).

Waffle stomp. Urban dictionary.

I sometime pee in the shower if the spirit moves me, but #2 does not make any sense with a working flush toilet nearby.

I vaguely recall an old movie reference to someone challenged by restroom unavailability, doing something that rude in a YMCA shower.  My worst experience in that regard was attending a Newport Jazz festival back in the 60s. As I recall the local Macdonalds was about the only open restroom with a line hundreds of people long.

Hitting the shower to clear dingle berries is always an option but I am not at risk. I started out this adventure with two rolls of TP in reserve and still have one of those two, plus a package of 4 I purchased a week and a half ago... The web order I placed before I found those 4 rolls is still showing up as "delayed" with prompts for me to cancel the order.  Coincidentally I have seen web ads from that exact same merchant saying they will not run out of TP. I expect this is true, but not proved by my experience with their website. I should probably cancel.

My apologies for TMI in the scatological realm but you took us there with the waffle stomp image.

JR