Deaths from climate change

[JohnRoberts]

Hydrogen cars are available for sale or lease in Southern California. The Toyota Mirai, Honda Clarity and Hyundai Nexo. There aren't many places to refuel yet.

my older brother worked on hydrogen powered turbines while working at P&W decades ago... He also made a hydrogen powered fuel cell for a science fair project back in the 60s.

Right around the corner, all it takes is money and compliant tax payers.

It would actually make sense to use NG to power vehicles.

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Hydrogen cars are available for sale or lease in Southern California. The Toyota Mirai, Honda Clarity and Hyundai Nexo. There aren't many places to refuel yet.

One of my former coworkers had one of the Mirai. Well, his wife picked it out, but he had to drive it anytime it needed refilling (once a week or so) because the fill mechanism was not user friendly. It would freeze and either stop filling or freeze into the fill port on the car. And the only hydrogen station in the area was at SJC airport. The tank takes up a lot of space and is a really high pressure. Hydrogen is really ridiculous to make, distribute, store (including pressurization), and transfer--all things which must be robust and easy for it to be a viable fuel for vehicles.

 

[Gold]

Sounds like first generation engineering problems. Hydrogen seems like the best of the bunch to me. Cleaner and easier to extract than fossil fuels. None of the problems with mining and disposal of batteries. No electric grid strain. Water vapor emissions.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Sounds like first generation engineering problems. Hydrogen seems like the best of the bunch to me. Cleaner and easier to extract than fossil fuels. None of the problems with mining and disposal of batteries. No electric grid strain. Water vapor emissions.

if energy was free then hydrogen would make sense as a clean final fuel... you can burn it, or make electricity directly feeding it into a fuel cell...

BUT energy to extract hydrogen from water is not free. Not crazy to run electrolysis from excess solar/wind energy but storage is not completely trivial.

One of my former coworkers had one of the Mirai. Well, his wife picked it out, but he had to drive it anytime it needed refilling (once a week or so) because the fill mechanism was not user friendly. It would freeze and either stop filling or freeze into the fill port on the car. And the only hydrogen station in the area was at SJC airport. The tank takes up a lot of space and is a really high pressure. Hydrogen is really ridiculous to make, distribute, store (including pressurization), and transfer--all things which must be robust and easy for it to be a viable fuel for vehicles.

As I recall from my brother telling stories about hydrogen problems there are several... Hydrogen makes some metals brittle so high pressure hydrogen tanks are not easy. Another concern is hydrogen leaks catching fire. Hydrogen burns clear making it hard to find burning leaks. My brother said that they used straw brooms to find an invisible hydrogen leak burning when the straw visibly caught fire.

Surely we could manage the problems, it only takes money... lots o money.

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Sounds like first generation engineering problems. Hydrogen seems like the best of the bunch to me. Cleaner and easier to extract than fossil fuels. None of the problems with mining and disposal of batteries. No electric grid strain. Water vapor emissions.

There's no guarantee that new tech will be viable, safe, or robust. Here are some papers discussing some of the challenges related to compression.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/compressed-hydrogen
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41918-020-00077-0
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/gaseous-hydrogen-compression

 

[user 37518]

So it sounds like if there was no fault on the grid, and those wind turbines hadn't needed a diesel generator to run for 186 hours, you would be on board with wind generation, since no fossil fuels would have been burned? Or are you opposed purely on ideological grounds?

To be clear again: diesel generation at a nuclear (or petroleum) plant is ok, but unacceptable for a wind farm?

Otherwise it means those nuclear power plants you want cannot have diesel generators either, because we need to be consistent in our standards, si? So the nuclear power plants will need smaller nuclear power plants in cases of emergencies. However those smaller plants will also need even smaller plants to start up the backup plants.

Also, facilities for long term high-level radioactive waste dry storage for spent fuel rods cannot be powered by fossil fuels, and therefore need their own nuclear power plants, with backup nuclear power plants, and backups to those backups. Transportation of waste from the plant to the dry storage areas must also need nuclear powered trucks and rail cars, which must tow the backup nuclear plants behind them.

I have zero problems with diesel engines, I do have a problem with those hypocrite Earth worshippers, climate doomsday prophets who keep virtue signaling "climate deniers" and throwing soup at art to "just stop oil", and advocate for wind whilst firing up the diesel engines to keep their fantasy going. That is my problem.

And yes, it is unacceptable in a wind farm. Are you kidding? that is exactly what activists are saying, that we need wind because it is green and sustainable (apparently sustainable really means "as long as there is a diesel engine around"). The whole point of wind farms is to use the freaking wind not fossil fuels. What in the world are you talking about? If we still have to rely on diesel engines, lets go diesel + nuclear and stop playing the "Savior of the World" card by messing around with ineffective forms of energy production.

 

[cyrano]

And anyway, you have to ask by what process is the hydrogen is created (electrolysis??) However it is done, the enrgy you get out from the hydrogen will be leass than the enrgy it takes to make it. So where does that energy come from?. Seems to me there is a tendency to avoid basic physics questions when disussing net zero.

Cheers

Ian

There is a process to produce hydrogen that's effective enough. It's economical in some area's. What's slowing it down, is storage and distribution. And local rules about LPG (CNG) cars that stem from people being afraid of any kind of gas.

In effect, EVs are not emission free. There's still unhealthy dust from brakes and tires. Part of the latest EU norm for vehicles allowed in low-emission zones addresses these, but car manufacturers have already obtained a delay because this technology doesn't exist yet.

That leaves the biggest problem of all: asphalt. I see no solution, even medium term.

 

[cyrano]

And yes, it is unacceptable in a wind farm. Are you kidding? that is exactly what activists are saying, that we need wind because it is green and sustainable (apparently sustainable really means "as long as there is a diesel engine around"). The whole point of wind farms is to use the freaking wind not fossil fuels. What in the world are you talking about? If we still have to rely on diesel engines, lets go diesel + nuclear and stop playing the "Savior of the World" card by messing around with ineffective forms of energy production.

You still ignore the fact that the diesel is only needed during startup.

It's also a temp emergency solution because the local grid was unable to provide the power for simultaneous startup of the entire windpark, which it handled before.

A design error? Perhaps.

 

[cyrano]

The anti-humanity anti-fossil fuel movement is worse than sad, it is harming poor people around the world.

Do you have any smidge of evidence for this opinion?

 

[user 37518]

You still ignore the fact that the diesel is only needed during startup.

This is not what happened in this particular case we were discussing.

 

[cyrano]

They call the good stuff "Green Hydrogen", but it mostly made from electrolysis using solar or wind power... Gray hydrogen is cracked from natural gas using steam.

JR

The process of electrolysis has become a lot less energy intensive by the use of a newly developed catalyst. Saudi-Arabia is investing heavily. So are the Chinese...

 

[cyrano]

This is not what happened in this particular case we were discussing.

Have a look:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecleoch_Wind_Farm
This particular wind farm has been plagued by defects from the beginning. From fires over exploding HV transformers and gearboxes. How's that not an emergency repair?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Do you have any smidge of evidence for this opinion?

It's about missed economic growth and prolonged poverty longer than neccesary.

Epstein came up with the term "anti-human" for the knee jerk opposition to all human development. I haven't read the new Lomborg book but I expect he will beat this same drum.

It is hard to imagine how making fossil fuel generated energy more expensive will help anybody but activists,,, it certainly won't help poor people.

===

The process of electrolysis has become a lot less energy intensive by the use of a newly developed catalyst. Saudi-Arabia is investing heavily. So are the Chinese...

I still question the utility of hydrogen for wide use even with 100% conversion from electrical energy. Back in the 60s we used platinum catalysts.

Better catalysts are good but not a significant game changer.

JR

 

[cyrano]

Just a few of the recent developments in catalysts:

https://news.rice.edu/news/2022/rice-labs-catalyst-could-be-key-hydrogen-economyhttps://news.cornell.edu/stories/2022/02/new-catalysts-steer-hydrogen-fuel-cells-mainstreamhttps://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/01/220114153429.htm
The local university is doing a test setup in one of the large chemical companies here. The idea is to use waste from existing processes, solar and the new generation of catalysts.

It looks like it could be economically viable.

It's also part of a new way of thinking. Universal solutions will never be as good as a range of different solutions for particular problems.

 

[Tubetec]

They installed a number of large turbines around the lower harbour area where I live on site at various pharmacuetical companies , its not just about starting them up on icy cold mornings in the north of Scotland , they found that on calm days where there wasnt much wind they needed to use power to turn the the things over slowly otherwise it was detrimental to the lubrication /coolant systems , it very rarely goes much below 0C where I am .

 

[JohnRoberts]

Just a few of the recent developments in catalysts:

https://news.rice.edu/news/2022/rice-labs-catalyst-could-be-key-hydrogen-economyhttps://news.cornell.edu/stories/2022/02/new-catalysts-steer-hydrogen-fuel-cells-mainstreamhttps://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/01/220114153429.htm

created a scalable catalyst that needs only the power of light to convert ammonia into clean-burning hydrogen fuel.
=
Cornell chemists have discovered a class of nonprecious metal derivatives that can catalyze fuel cell reactions about as well as platinum, at a fraction of the cost.
=
Researchers have developed a new water-splitting process and material that maximize the efficiency of producing green hydrogen, making it an affordable and accessible option for industrial partners that want to convert to green hydrogen for renewable energy storage instead of conventional, carbon-emitting hydrogen production from natural gas.

I concede that hydrogen is a nice storage medium for excess power because it burns clean (water is the combustion product) and can be converted directly back to electricity using a fuel cell. That said the economics are not compelling and without significant government funding support would remain a science fair project.

The local university is doing a test setup in one of the large chemical companies here. The idea is to use waste from existing processes, solar and the new generation of catalysts.

It looks like it could be economically viable.

I can wait, but there are so many thumbs on the economic scale it's hard to see the real costs. Ford just cut a deal with Tesla to charge Fords at Tesla "super charger" stations. Elon is doing this to take advantage of government spending on expanding the number of charging stations (another economic distortion).

It's also part of a new way of thinking. Universal solutions will never be as good as a range of different solutions for particular problems.

I support an all of the above energy policy, low cost energy fuels economic growth that raises more people out of poverty worldwide, and improves our quality of life. Most of us are so wealthy that energy costs only impact us in the margin. For poor people energy costs are more significant.

We need a sensible sharp pencil approach, not an emotional end of the world catastrophic end of days scare tactic.

Show me a shred of proof that a 1.5'C temperature rise is somehow catastrophic. That temperature target is purely arbitrary set out to anchor the hyperbolic arguments with no real scientific basis.

It's like the low information world has been hypnotized (more like indoctrinated).

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Feb 17, 2022The five groups agreed to give the AP an $8 million grant lasting three years. "Funders have no influence over AP's reporting on this topic or any other," AP spokesperson Lauren Easton told the Daily Caller News Foundation in a statement. "AP has long provided accurate, factual coverage of climate and the environment.

and if you believe that... (follow the money)

JR

 

[cyrano]

Show me a shred of proof that a 1.5'C temperature rise is somehow catastrophic. That temperature target is purely arbitrary set out to anchor the hyperbolic arguments with no real scientific basis.

I agree it's not catastrophic. It'll only kill old people. Another problem solved.

It's like the low information world has been hypnotized (more like indoctrinated)

Look up operation mockingbird. That was the first large-scale effort. It never ended.

 

[ruffrecords]

There is a process to produce hydrogen that's effective enough. It's economical in some area's. What's slowing it down, is storage and distribution. And local rules about LPG (CNG) cars that stem from people being afraid of any kind of gas.

And exactly what is that process? And where does the energy it uses come from?

Cheers

Ian

 

[JohnRoberts]

I agree it's not catastrophic.

good that's a start

It'll only kill old people.

The hyperbolic (zero carbon) response will harm poor people most.

Very disappointing I just did a fresh search and found a half dozen nonsense headlines. It looks like all the funding of news agencies (like AP) is paying off.

I did find one blurb with clarity.

Both extreme heat and cold are deadly, but more people globally die from cold. Does a warming planet actually save lives? It depends on where you live.

Another problem solved.

I will expire soon enough so you will be able to continue unchallenged by me.

Look up operation mockingbird. That was the first large-scale effort. It never ended.

I'm shocked (not)...

maybe watch the ongoing congressional hearings, some interesting revelations.

JR

 

[cyrano]

And exactly what is that process? And where does the energy it uses come from?

Cheers

Ian

The energy input comes from the grid in the test setup. The production setup will use solar and wind, or even wave produced electricity. Depends on the location. The Saudis are planning huge desalination plants and hydrogen production will be part of these plants.

The energy input in this test setup is much lower (roughly 90% lower), due to better catalysts.

That's all I heard about it. Nothing has been written up for general release yet afaik.

Several other test setups in Europe and Asia would also test other methods, like fermenting waste materials (from dung to paper). There's an interesting recent write-up here:

https://microbialcellfactories.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12934-022-01893-3