Deaths from climate change

[cyrano]

Thanks, Jabe. I somehow missed that...

 

[scott2000]

The conclusion seems very weak

That whole study is... Seriously? It's not like you have to listen to the speed talking guy explaining the buts at the end of a commercial. It's all spelled out for you....

 

[cyrano]

well, I figured if that study was propaganda, a lot of the papers on that site probably are too. I only don't see whose propaganda it is.

 

[jabe]

JAMA is peer-reviewed, but that doesn't mean its articles can't be misuses for the purposes of propaganda...

 

[cyrano]

There are dozens of sites that pretend to be scientific. Usually the only purpose is getting citations and having publications on your résumé.

Some pharma companies are amongst the worst offenders.

 

[user 37518]

I think many different things need to be done. I don't see one global solution, even if progress has been made in storing CO2, there still will be other greenhouse gases to cater for. And the first thing to do, is let those who don't care about methane leaks in the oil industry face the consequences for their crimes. I believe some action is being undertaken, but I also fear that the fines aren't high enough to impress oil capitalists.

I don't think anyone here in this thread is against the environment or against preserving the Earth, but rather the idea of impending doom and that we have to do something about it, even by force. That is the part where we disagree. Being eco-friendly is not a problem in itself, but rather when they start saying that you have to eat Bill Gates' synthetic chicken or beef meat, and bugs, because you are killing the planet, while they go in their jets to Davos even if that involves ultra-short flights, to eat premium beef, foie gras, sleep with prostitutes and decide the fate of humanity. Just to get back home and virtue signal to you that you have to eat the bugs and walk to work because YOU are killing the planet.

The most important part, however you see it, is that the bickering and the propaganda needs to stop, from both sides. And that's something I don't see happening any time soon, due to polarisation. The best example is that some keep blaming countries like China and India, without looking at their own wrongdoing.

Totally agree, but you have to agree that China and India account for nearly half the world's population, so it is really futile if the 17 million Dutch (as you seem to praise) are laying the foundation, whilst 2.8 billion Chinese and Hindus don't care.

Mother nature might just decide to let the human species disappear...

Unfortunately, I don't believe in a "Mother Nature" as you do. Although I do have to say that I find it interesting that those who think and speak of humans as pests living on planet Earth are terribly worried of seeing humans disappear (probably they are just worried about themselves). I am not necessarily saying that is your case, but I see it all the time.

 

[cyrano]

Don't get me started on synthetic meat...

It's expensive, taste is not so good and more importantly, I don't get why vegetarians need veggie hamburgers or sausages. I mean, real veggie cooking is great, but no ersatz for me. A hamburger is made from meat. Period.

I don't believe in mother nature either. I do believe however in the suicide gene. Most biologists agree that every species has one, resulting in disease, suicidal behaviour or worse if a species gets too successful.

Also, Chinese and Indian people and govt do care about ecology. Even if China is still burning lots of coal. But the desire to lift their population out of poverty is far greater than the desire to not pollute. I don't know about India, but China is very much aware of the ecological problems they are creating.

Let's also not forget disasters like the one that happened in Bhopal. The culprits couldn't be held accountable, due to some legal maneuvering by the company responsible. People are still suffering and dying because of the poisoning. The cleanup will be payed by the Indian taxpayer, not by the guilty capitalists.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

well, I figured if that study was propaganda, a lot of the papers on that site probably are too. I only don't see whose propaganda it is.

Look at the funding:

"Funding/Support: The Tobin Center for Economic Policy at Yale University and the Yale School of Public Health COVID-19 Rapid Response Research Fund funded this study."

No possible bias there...

 

[ruffrecords]

If CO2 triggers volcanic explosive eruptions, we need to find out if the rise in CO2 in the atmosphere plays a significant role or not?

These explosive eruptions are known to influence the weather and maybe even the climate?

I have no problem whatsoever with expanding our knowledge as long as we don't go off half cocked trying to solve an unproven problem by altering the amount of something we don't even know the detailed effect of and at the same time ignoring other probable causes.

I 100% agree that what we need is to base our actions on a lot more scientific research and a lot less on dubious models.

Cheers

ian

 

[user 41968]

https://greekcitytimes.com/2023/08/...ce-make-79-arrests-over-widespread-wildfires/

Greece has strongly condemned the actions of "arsonist scum" after the police apprehended 79 individuals suspected of arson in connection with the devastating wildfires sweeping the country. Vassilis Kikilias, the Civil Protection Minister, revealed that there have been multiple attempts by arsonists to ignite fresh fires on Mount Parnitha, located northwest of Athens. The nation is currently grappling with hundreds of wildfires that have tragically claimed the lives of at least 20 people this week.

More conspiracy theory de jour knee jerk reaction or death from climate change activists?

 

[scott2000]

May have brought this up before.....Many years ago we had some seriously dry and windy weather and had a pretty large fire in the development here. We're on a conservation that has miles of woods so , if fire were to spread in certain places, it could've been very massive.
One of these windy nights when I was out back of my house I saw a big flash about 100 yards out and thought it was weird so went to investigate. There is a pond back where I saw the flash and the conservation actually surrounds it. It was a group of people standing in a circle around a fire. I thought, it was weird because it's not really the type of place to be hanging out and it was a little out of character for what I'd imagine any of my neighbors doing. I went and got a flashlight and went back out there. It was a group of teenagers I didn't recognize from around here and this fire was literally 2 feet from the edge of the woods with dead brush everywhere and the wind was gusting 20-30 miles an hour.
That story ended with the police showing up, me and one of my dogs being surrounded and threatened by these kids and the fire department showing up to throw the burnt logs into the pond and put out the hot spot.... Really think it was intentionally set to cause some damage and they may have been responsible for the fire a couple of days prior. The kids took off before anyone showed up and the fire department had some things to say about the next time I see them.

I had a friend growing up that was a pyro until the day his tube socks were melted into his legs when he tried stomping out one of his small gasoline fires. He had to go through some serious rehab.

 

[user 41968]

Trees give off Oxygen. Oxygen is bad. We have to cut down trees and bury them.



After they cut down the trees they'll come for you...

 

[Matador]

Trees give off Oxygen. Oxygen is bad. We have to cut down trees and bury them.
After they cut down the trees they'll come for you...

As usual, this doesn't survive even 5 minutes of Googling:

Here a carbon sequestration strategy is proposed in which certain dead or live trees are harvested via collection or selective cutting, then buried in trenches or stowed away in above-ground shelters. The largely anaerobic condition under a sufficiently thick layer of soil will prevent the decomposition of the buried wood.
...
The possibility of carbon sequestration via wood burial stems from the observation that natural forest is typically littered with dead trees (Fig. 1). It is hypothesized that large quantities of organic carbon were buried and preserved for over one hundred thousand years under the great Northern Hemisphere ice sheets during the Pleistocene glacial-interglacial cycles [15, 16].
...
The 10 GtC y-1 dead wood production rate could also be enhanced by active forest management. Instead of waiting for the trees to die, one can also harvest relatively mature trees via techniques such as selective cutting. At first sight, this seems to be a carbon source as live trees take up CO2. However, if trees are selected properly, it may lead to an overall sink because younger forest tends to be more productive, and somewhere in the development stage, productivity significantly exceeds respiration and decomposition loss [24]. Since the less productive trees that do not do well compete for light and other resources, their removal will leave younger trees to grow more vigorously in the gaps, forming a net carbon sink.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

As usual, this doesn't survive even 5 minutes of Googling:

It sounds the same to me.

"...if trees are selected properly, it may lead to an overall sink because younger forests tend to be more productive..."

There's no certainty in that outcome.

Of course this logic sounds just like selective harvesting which many environmentalists vehemently oppose. And, as a hater of wastefulness myself, I have to ask why not make something durable from the trees instead of burying them? And aren't we already burying a lot of former plant waste (old lumber, paper, furniture, etc.) in anaerobic landfills that environmentalists also hate? Doesn't burial involve a lot of digging in heavy dirt/rocks that requires big diesel-burning equipment?

Also "Since the less productive trees that do not do well compete for light and other resources, their removal will leave younger trees to grow" is wishful thinking. Anyone who has lived in or owned forested land will tell you that where sunlight hits the forest floor you'll first get undergrowth which is not mostly younger trees. In dry western forests this is kindling for the next big wildfire unless it is managed (by fossil-fuel burning equipment).

Summary: really dumb idea that assumes much that is not well understood.

 

[JohnRoberts]

If the climate crowd can convince themselves that forest management has merit to reduce the evil CO2 released, good for them. Maybe manage the non-native grasses in Hawaii too, or bring back growing sugar cane there (not profitable).

My understanding is that dead trees release their carbon, unless you turn them into guitars or furniture. Burying them may delay the eventual CO2 release.

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

If the climate crowd can convince themselves that forest management has merit to reduce the evil CO2 released, good for them.

Of course the "best" forest for biodiversity is one that has a wide range of tree species of varying age and a lot of slowly decaying organic material for healthy mycorrhizae and soil conditions that support it all. The type of forest that has no human management at all.

Maybe manage the non-native grasses in Hawaii too, or bring back growing sugar cane there (not profitable).

Sugar cane captures a lot of carbon and turns it into something useful. Anyone who thinks growing usable plants/trees for decades and then just cutting and burying it all (maybe beside the wind turbine blades) makes any sense had zero system level thinking going on.

My understanding is that dead trees release their carbon, unless you turn them into guitars or furniture. Burying them may delay the eventual CO2 release.

JR

Maybe the plan is to make coal for future generations. Surely they'll have mastered clean coal by then...

 

[JohnRoberts]

Maybe the plan is to make coal for future generations. Surely they'll have mastered clean coal by then...

Don't say "clean coal" to me.... My local utility's "clean coal" (cough) plant is burning NG because it is cheaper and perhaps cleaner?.

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Don't say "clean coal" to me.... My local utility's "clean coal" (cough) plant is burning NG because it is cheaper and perhaps cleaner?.

JR

That little joke was included just for you.

 

[JohnRoberts]

That little joke was included just for you.

Not that funny, me and my fellow ratepayers ultimately have to pay for the white elephant clean coal plant. An article from 2013 mentions a $1B cost overrun.

JR

 

[crazydoc]

Some actual information:



"Wood Vault is a centralized storage facility that collects wood from a variety of sources such as urban natural wood residuals (woody yard trimmings, NWR) , wood from storm damage, wood from forest thinning, construction and demolition debris, wood harvested in sustainably managed forests. The buried biomass is sealed off from oxygen with clay or other low-permeability material and embedded in a subterranean environment that will prevent decomposition semi-permanently. Variations and other versions are discussed later"

https://cbmjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13021-022-00202-0

 

[Matador]

Some actual information:

I guess opinions vary.