Describe The Sounds Of Your Favorite Caps

[lightandmind]

Poly-what? Tele-who? Film-huh? I'm new to the DIY game and would like to get a grasp on what sonic characteristics can be attributed to each type of cap used in audio electronics. Some are clearer than others? Some have hyped highend? Some are more midrangy? Some have a nice HF rolloff? Help bring me up to speed!

 

[JohnRoberts]

The best cap sounds like wire..... anything else is inferior.

Good design practice, minimizes non-ideal behavior to not be audible..

JR

 

[rafafredd]

Most subtle sound aspects are not describable.

Hear for yourself and choose. There is no shortcut.

 

[RuudNL]

IMHO opinion there is a lot of psychology involved in this... 
If you have paid for very expensive capacitors, you simply want to hear that the quality is better!
(That is also the reason that your latest project sounds better than any other project before!)
Personally I have never heard really big differences between capacitors.
Some people say "never use tantalium capacitors", because they tend to introduce distortion, while Neve equipment is full of them and I think we can agree that they did not produce bad equipment....
So: try for yourself what you like. As long as you don't use the cheapest types from an unknown manufacturer, I don't think very much can go wrong.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I wrote about this back in the '80s, capacitors do vary from ideal behavior in known ways.

I do not argue with people about what they hear, and don't wish to dismiss this all as placebo effect, that said uncontrolled listening tests are "uncontrolled" so subject to audible differences caused by mechanisms other than what we think they are.

Real capacitor differences can be parsed out with a suitable test bench, and even without big dog test equipment, null testing can reduce human audition variability from actual results.

There is a tendency with many DIY to ASSume less is known about audio technology than really is. These mechanisms are well known and well managed by conservative designers for a long time. 

JR

 

[etheory]

All of these caps sound the same to me:

Just saying 8).

 

[emrr]

Some cap types have a definite sound in certain environments, but it entirely depends on the surrounding circuit as to whether it is audible. 

 

[okgb]

I don't mind " buying " into a little Voodoo as long as I'm not getting ripped off for it
you could use  " the best " parts all the time , but likely you'll start looking at the money
at some point , If you don't have the time to evaluate , could go with common wisdom
until you start to hear preferences  , and if you never do , no problem .

 

[lightandmind]

Hear for yourself and choose. There is no shortcut.

Are there any test referances or A/B comparison out there? It's going to take a looooong time to recap a piece of gear 20 times over and record the differences.

Is everyone seriously incapable of "Describing The Sounds Of Thier Favorite Caps"?

These responses make me sorry that I even bothered asking.
:'(

 

[okgb]

Well do a little more searching , I'd think you can find plently of cap opinions with google
Do a little work eh ?
I have a Drawmer 1960 hybrid tube compressor , I changed the electrolytics on the audio board
with the elna " audio " caps from digikey  and it didn't sound brighter as I guessed but did sound more clear
[ less muddy ] phase  smear ? I don't know but it was worth the effort . so I choose those for audio app
where the value & voltage are available

pick a simpler project to check caps , but as others mentioned the effect may vary depending on the circuit
try changing one spot out only , say the output cap on a 312 type pre?

people only seem to use ceramic if they're cheap , don't think it matters or on psu's , if anything is better than that,
then anything is better than that

 

[RuudNL]

Good capacitors only sound good if your cables are 'cooked' the right way  :-*

 

[emrr]

Is everyone seriously incapable of "Describing The Sounds Of Thier Favorite Caps"?

Sounds so simple, why don't you give it a go.  Maybe right after you count the sand grains on the beach. 

 

[ricardo]

There's a lot of BS about capacitors.  eg the prejudice against ceramics.

Where their values/voltage ratings are appropriate, NPO/COG Ceramics are the BEST capacitors you can buy.  Scott Wurcer, who designed some of the quietest OPAs in the known universe, provides evidence in his Linear Audio articles.

eg to connect a capacitor capsule to the input FET, polystyrenes are microphonic & the Golden Pinnae silver micas introduce significant noise.  Here NPO/COG Ceramics are the best.

But for those who want the best sound, you need capacitors from Cooktown Recording and Ambisonic Productions.  Used in a single signal path, the gain in soundstage and depth will seem like you have Zillion.1  They are assembled by virgins from electrons, hand called from the Great Barrier Reef, into Unobtainium cases.

Send me US$500 in used banknotes for a sample and be amazed.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Asked and answered... my favorite cap sounds exactly like whatever source I put into it...

Back in the day I liked polystyrene but they are not SMD friendly(or very thru hole friendly either).

NPO/COG are quite good... but for many applications the surrounding circuitry can be made less stressful so you don't need super caps to keep artifacts below audibility.

If you want unjustified opinions, keep asking, they're out there...

JR

 

[CJ]

build a Pultec EQP 1a and make it so you can try out different caps, ie, run some wires from the circuit where the cap goes and put some mini clips on the other end,

then get some Wima's, orange drops, ceramics, teflon if you have the money,

maybe throw some antique stuff in there like vitamin Q's,

the old black plastic caps with the way old school color band systems can be very leaky so i usually avoid those,

this is the best way to sort out different sounding caps over a variety of frequencies,

then after you get the filter section caps sorted, start noddling with the line amp, throw some musicaps on the plates of the 12ax/u7a,

then after that, try some oil caps in the power supply if you can find them, or some non polarized filter caps like a big mylar job rated at 450 volts,

so now you have non polarized EQ caps figured out,

you have tube amp circuit caps figured out,

and you have power supply caps figured out,

the only thing left is which Neve electrolytics to use,

this seems to be a flavor of the week thing, as lytics do have a shelf life,

a certain Nichicon that was great 15 years ago may not be so great,

however, i love the old blue Phillips lytics like you see in old Quad 8 boards, and other places,

for Fuzz boxes and condenser mics, you need to talk to Gus, he has the nice cap checker that does esr and fbi and cia etc,

 

[shabtek]

(chanting)

"seee jay            seee jay              seee jay"





ooo                      ver

 

[lassoharp]

Are there any test referances or A/B comparison out there? It's going to take a looooong time to recap a piece of gear 20 times over and record the differences.

I think you hit the nail square on dead center.  Opinions from other users can be helpful but IMHO the only real sure way answer the question is a good A/B test set up.  You're exactly right - it will take a long time in between a recap before you can listen again, and how reliable will that be?  Maybe you will recall certain things with accuracy but you want an A/B test set up where the switching can be done quickly and numerous times for comparison.  Probably much easier for tube amps with just a couple of coupling caps than an entire EQ. 

I've used numerous different types of caps in things I've built and gear I've recapped.  About the best I can offer is that fresh caps sound different and often better than old caps.  And for something like the channel strip of a console, only when you recap the entire thing.


Here's a shoot out for consideration:

http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm



Whatever the differences may prove to be, I think we are talking about the last 5 or 10% of fidelity that people are pushing for, under circumstances where they are apparent to some.  That some of the more expensive caps may offer a better level of fidelity in a given circuit I'm not challenging and I wouldn't be surprised if they did however subtle or not so subtle.  What bothers me is that the price of some of those high end caps are over twice the cost of top shelf transformers from companies like Jensen, Cinemag, Sowter and Lundahl.  Something about that just doesn't seem right.  It makes me want to see a comparison on manufacturing costs for each.

 

[emrr]

R&D

 

[sodderboy]

CJ those "Blue Phillips" are still available from Vishay these days.

The short answer is that the answer is very subjective, and can get quite wanky depending on the answerer, so you have to do your own vision quest there. 
As a "newbie" it's better to work on basic skills first- tools handling, basic electronics, proper soldering, wiring, metalwork, power safety, integration, etc.  You want to make stuff that passes signal, has a low noise floor and survive the process.  When you have those skills and are listening to your recorded world through equipment that you built, then you will be better schooled to know if different cap style nuances are important to you.  If they are, you will be ready to experiment.  Maybe you will do a deep study into it.  If not, you will be no less informed or skilled so don't sweat it at the beginning.
Mike

 

[JohnRoberts]

One obvious variable that needs to be controlled for in a simple substitution listening test, is that all the cap samples are the same exact value. If not you would have to be capable of separating the audible difference caused by the value change from any sonic signature.

JR