DIY automation Ider

[[silent:arts]]

...
Limited selection of log/linear-servo/touch/motorized tho.

Wanna send me a few for demo's??

please!?  :-*

mhm, I don't think you will find any log taper there, all are out of digital systems, they have never seen any audio themselves. but the motor / position / how to control them problem stays the same.

 

[[silent:arts]]

... Yes, it looks like choosing the right fader won't be easy.. or at least cheap!...

you won't find it cheap :-[
and, if they change specs over the time, you might not even have to change the software, but some hardware too.
(this is what I see nearly all day, name it Lawo, Digidesign, Mandozzi, Fairlight ...)

looks like a nice project, but keep this in mind.

your benefit is really needing a custom fader
this will be build to specs, but will be expensive.
and in this situation, might be only a one off.

 

[SIXTYNINER]

"well said" Volker
we have to estimate well ,
if build a "solid" remote control can be convenient 
  ???
check on ebay , the price of digidesign pro control is now between 1500/2000 euros.
and soon new others remote controls (....like new cm labs 24 faders      )
will be available in the market ,  with less expensive price,
if the cost of parts (expecialli penny & giles motor faders)
of a diy 16/24 ch remote control is more then 1000,00 euros
+ all time necessary to build ,debug,and test it ,
it cannot be a "positive experience"......

:-\

.....hope to be "wrong" ,
cheers
6t9r

 

[smallbutfine]

Yep, Volker is totally right not to underestimate the fader prob...

As for daisy chaining the core modules: Generally you do this and it works with almost all midibox project,
BUT...

Addendum: MIDIbox LC is an exception, because the host application (Logic/Cubase/etc...) requires to connect each core to a seperate MIDI IO!

(Thorsten Klose, owner of midibox)

This is completely related to mackie protocol.
You NEED 1 midi system port for one Logic/mackie control emulation i.e. 8 faders, to be able to use your DAW's control interface option for mackie control.

Tascam resolved the problem by using a proprietary computer OS USB driver that shows 4 Midi ports (3x Mackie and 1x proprietary for additional controllers) from one USB device/port to the system.
Unfortunately, theirs is not 'class compliant', so a custom driver has to be written to accomplish it and the unit is not future-safe in regards to driver availability. Class compliant USB devices can be driven directly by modern OS's standard drivers.

Axel explained he used a midiman 4x midi interface inside his box. this is an easy way to accomplish the task. OTOH if you are really crazy for DIY, there are some custom chips available via groupbuy, that are easy to use USB-MIDI controllers, fairly easy to implement, cheap and offer 4 Midi-ports if I remember it correctly.
Also available thru the midibox community. I guess I read it some time ago on their wiki page...
The chip production is an exclusive deal they have, there was a waiting list that has to fill up before a batch is made (well, we know that kind of things, don't we....)

Kind regards,
Martin

 

[ddt]

Thanks Martin, that's good to know...

So the next step is to test this with some suitable faders... anyone fancy getting a 10k lin/log/touch sensor Alps, TKD and H-S fader for testing?  I probably wouldn't bother with P&G, as the price was ridiculously high for this configuration.. but the others are worth exploring IMO.

Dan

 

[[silent:arts]]

I will send you some motor faders, but without any log.

 

[Shorty]

I'm on it... I'll get after some guru sample sourcing today.

And I'll do all I can to iron out what I need from Midibox to build for ProTools compatibility. If I can figure it out I'll buy the stuff today.

I'm still a bit lost over there. I mean, I searched, clicked, perused and read at ucapps and midibox, but had a bit of a hard time getting my q's answered. And my q's on their forum were probably so generic that I might not get a response of any kind.

If I can't build at least say 48 channels for use with pro tools then I'll be going a different route.

 

[Shorty]

I will send you some motor faders, but without any log.

I'll PM you.....

I have 15 ALPS RSA0N11M9A06 left over per my count last night.
http://www.alps.com/products/WebObjects/catalog.woa/E/HTML/Potentiometer/SlideMixers/RSN1M/RSA0N11M9A06.html

Actually, if you had 10 of the same ALPS I'd be very interested, cause then even after figuring out an alternative with Log,
I could leave one 24 channel unit together for say a production station or something, and have a dedicated master...

and perhaps any other alternatives....

I'll continue with the Log search, as that is ultimately the goal.

And, as stated, I will research more of the MIDIbox stuff, and hopefully talk with the developers there. Who are they?

Also, you stated when software changes they replace faders. What software? Pro Tools? Drivers? Firmware?

Once I have a working unit with Log, I really don't intend to change anything other than the version of PT as it progresses.

The Command 8, Pro Control, and Control 24 have all worked with PT since way back......
I'm maybe missing what you mean. I know this is n ot simple, but I also know it is possible/achievable.
All just a matter of developement....... (As if that's easy... heh heh)

I'll PM you some direct contact info

 

[Skylar]

Interesting bit of bonus info:

TKD started having their products manufactured by Song-Huei in 2004.

http://www.tkd-corp.com/03_informations/informations.html


I sent another inquiry to Song-Huei...has anyone heard back from them yet?

 

[Shorty]

"Not I" said the short tailed cow...

Though I haven't really sunk my teeth into em yet

 

[juniorhifikit]

I have heard back from their rep, but I'm awaiting pricing and data sheets...

 

[smallbutfine]

The midibox main and only OS developer is Thorsten Klose.
You can reach him on the midibox forum, Forum name TK.
Maybe start a thread directed to him and describe the project you are working on.
(I guess it will get his attention soon.)
If anyone can tell you something about actual limitation of this system, he is the man.
He is a nice guy, we had some email contact but this was years ago.
I guess he now removed email and PM system from the midibox pages, because support was just too labour intensive at some point. Midibox has gained huge attention on the web...

Kind regards,
Martin

 

[Skylar]

I found out that SH (Song-Huei) will not sell the faders they make for TKD to the public,
but they do have their own SKUs.

I asked SH for a quote on 500 faders.
They've been asking me a slew of questions to better understand the application, so I think the email with the actual prices in it should be coming soon.
I told SH that my target price was $10/unit. We'll see what happens.


I also found a UK distributor for TKD; they should be getting me some prices soon also.

 

[helterbelter]

Man, this is getting really exciting !

I have a question about the midiapplication that has to be "built".... Are you talking about some sort of VSTI ? If it's the kind of thing that's been used in Cubase SX (like the old MidiMapper devices), I'd be happy to look into it. I don't have experience with it, but I have to build something like that for my own console, so, once I have figured it out, I can build something similar for this exciting project as well.

In case there's an application needed to convert USB data to mididata, well, I don't have a clue how to do that.

Nice nice nice !  ;D

 

[smallbutfine]

Helterbelter, I think we are talking microcontroller programming, as of for the fader control. if midibox should be the platform, it's PIC assember or c and alot of work is already done (complete HUI emulation).
Possible adaptions have to be made for the type of fader chosen. This may need changes in the motorfader module (hardware) and driver (software).
The reason for choosing microcontrollers instead of a PC driven control is simply midi latency.
Modern Midi interfacing from PC still has latencies in millisecond range.
Microcontrollers like the PICs used by midibox can easily drive a small OS and application that is able to handle this in microseconds. The difference is hard to ignore and has a big influence on usability.

However, the microcontroller(s) still has to interface your DAW (pc or apple based).
For HUI protocol one midi port must be used for every 8 faders.
Sure you want to use a multiple midiport interface and connect it to your daw by USB.
This can be done by something like the USB m-audio/midiman interfaces (or similar from steinberg, CME etc....).
OR, for hardcore diy such an interface can be built into the box with another controller like I described.
THEN there has to be an USB driver that shows the midiports thru the USB device to the computers OS.


The critical part is the adaption of the microprocessor platform to the specific fader.
(hardware redesign and or driver programming in the microprocessors asm language).

Hm, hope this helps a bit in understanding...

Kind regards,
Martin

 

[helterbelter]

Hmm, this is something I know Sh** about.

I'd better read here and try to understand, as well as reading and research about the microprocessor stuff, instead of interrupting this thread with stupid questions.
The microprocessor stuff caught my interest (also in this thread :
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=31752.0 ) and I see a lot of possibilities for various applications.

 

[smallbutfine]

Haha, no problem at all. This stuff is absolutely non-trivial.
I experimented a lot with midibox in the past, when midi caught my interest much more then analog.
I only configured readily written PIC applications and never got into their assembler, despite the fact that I have a professional programming education (cobol, pascal, c, perl, vb).
Nevertheless very exciting stuff with a steep learning curve in the beginning (if you wanna get serious with it).

Kind regards,
Martin

 

[smallbutfine]

Ah, I see.
Yes you are right about HUI I guess.
Mackie and Digidesign developed HUI, but seems different from Mackie/Logic Control protocol(which seem identical) ...
Anyway, the HUI's controller manuals state:
(CC#):
Faders: MSB 00-07 (LSB: 20-27)
Ctrl Pots: 08-0B
Jog Wheel: 0D
Switches MSB: 0F (LSB: 2F)
V-Pots: 40-4C

But this is very vage and shurely not half the story.
It can be guessed that there are many relations between Mackie control and HUI protocols, having the mackie developers in both projects.
Yes HUI would be nice for the protools people....
I will look out for more information about the topic (without signing an NDA...)
In opposite to MC protocol, HUI seems not to be leaked or reverse engineered yet...(at least I did not find any more information)
Maybe I ask some of the midibox people as well...

Kind regards,
Martin

 

[SIXTYNINER]

Yes you are right about HUI I guess.
Mackie and Digidesign developed HUI, but seems different from Mackie/Logic Control protocol(which seem identical) ...
But this is very vage and shurely not half the story.
It can be guessed that there are many relations between Mackie control and HUI protocols, having the mackie developers in both projects.
Yes HUI would be nice for the protools people....

yes man,
hui is another protocol it must be switched before power up pro tools ,
Carl the father of motormix (ex N A S A electronics engineer)
before worked at pro control for digidesign and later built the motormix.......
(same protocol ?....)
.......only a man that know protocols can help us with a "sniffer" ,
and later try to make a  "soft pack" compatibile with  the controller devices ,
really nice control an audio motorfader from pro tools automation


6t9r

 

[suli]

Hello to All

What happen to the DIY automation Ider project ?
I would like to do my analogue mixer MCI JH 636

Thank you