DIY automation Ider

[Shorty]

I will not be driving the faders with the M-3500

I am basically just going to take the guts of the FW-1884 and burry it inside the M-3500

So I will have seperate power for the surface and whatever components I leave involved,
so for initial installation, each expander and the main unit, and the mixer will have seperate power.

Eventually I'll build a single supply for the control surface donor, or mod the tascam supply to handle it all

 

[Shorty]

Yes this approach may be the only possible way to do it within a reasonable budget and time.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. The intention is to retrofit a FW digital fader to an analog mixer? In other words you will somehow attach the FW digitally controlled fader to the analog as "piggiback" right?

I would say if that works even flimsily you will be somewhere where no one has gone before!

At that point it becomes a purely mechanical problem only (if the FW design allows you to place faders remotely without any negative results).

So yes if the FW faders are strong enough to pull along their analog conjoined twin then I'd say you will have an avenue with hope of success.

Keep us all informed.

Jim

I'm taking it a step further.

P&G, ALPS, etc, make faders that pass analoug audio, and are motorized and touch sensitive.

I will replace all the FW faders with said faders,
They will then pass the analoug that the mixer did on it's own,
but also be motorized by the FW components.... brains.....

See?????

Very simple.

No piggybacking or tying together of faders.

Just a analoug motorized fader.

This is basically making a ghetto SSL

 

[Shorty]

The computer will see the FW as it would normally.

It won't know the faders have changed, nor will it know that analoug passes the faders.

It will stricktly run them as it would as stock, but the analoug board will still function because the analoug part of the upgraded faders will take the old faders place.

One fader per channel that passes audio, AND is motorized and touch sensitive.

Analoug part operates the analoug mixer channel, motorized part operates off the FW and communicates with the DAW and motorizes the fader

Two worlds tied together.

Then, I will make interupts on the analoug part of the fader for every channel,
so that when automation is chasing and the fader is running, I can dissengage the analoug part of the fader,
so as not to effect the analoug level passing the fader if I don't want audio.
Like a mute in a way, but without muting... just a way to disconnect.... if even needed....
don't really know 100% where I felt I had to go with that one....
Just in case you're using the fader to automate pans,
but you don't want any audio passing that fader to drive all the way up when panning left for automation.

Could simply mute the channels as well.... so maybe a relayed muting system instead.... just as easy.... or easier.

 

[Bluzzi]

Hmmm...I see your reasoning and I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt that the faders in the FW will drive analog faders correctly. I don't think its going to be as easy as substituting motorized analog faders (in place of existing ones) to the FW board and presto watch it all work.

It all depends on the fader motors being of the same type (stepper, DC servo etc.) and having same drive specs, as well as the same positioning feedback system.

If you can match those criteria it should work. Its worth a try, you never know until you do.

Jim

 

[kml23956]

Owning a tascam m-3500 myself, I like the idea.  I wasn't going to rip the guts out of something else. My plan was to build a new midi controller and put it in the 3500 but I like this plan even better.  I also have an old Steinberg Houston just lying around.  Since I am a Nuendo user it makes me think about ripping that apart. 

There is a perfect place to put the parts for your automation in the opening that is there for the 3700 automation and disk on the upper right hand corner of the board.

 

[gemini86]

This is what I wanted to do with the bcf2000, being that it's REALLY cheap, but I don't know what type of motors are in it, and if the choppyness is due to the cheap stock motorized faders, or the type that they are, or just the entire design itself.

 

[chriss]

Hi there,

I share Jim's doubts: Check the µcapps-page for their MF-board: http://www.ucapps.de/. This board works with a number of Motor-Faders and does NOT with a number of others. You can also search through the application-pdf's on the Microchip Homepage. They have many documents regarding motor-control via Microcontroller. It's all a bit more complicated than it looks at first. So I dropped the idea of a motor control and therefore sold my Tascam M-3500 to buy a real Mixer instead.

Chris

 

[Shorty]

I think the percieved problem here is due to overthinking and overcomplicating.

As I said, YES it relies on compatible faders. But that is easy.

There are multiple 'standards' for the Servo (The motorized aspect of the fader)

I've been through a ton of whitepapers and spec sheets, and communicating with Dale Manquen from Manco.... Distributor for P&G

There are multiple choices from P&G for practically ANY application.... And further... There ARE substitutions that can be made....
The motor itself is not all that critical, other than in terms of voltage, etc.... but it can vary and still be compatible (AS LONG AS V, R, W IS RIGHT)

The Linear Track is for Servo Postion....
They all read in a very similar fashion. Basically, at 0db the voltage supplied is at 100%, and at ~db it is at 0%

The Linear Track is VERY simple, and not as tough as you might think to substitute a fader.....
there are tons made to the same specs.

Guys.... Look at it like this:

Take this fader ....
http://www.alps.com/products/WebObjects/catalog.woa/E/HTML/Potentiometer/SlideMixers/RSN1M/RSA0N11M9A06.html
..... out of the Control 24
..... and replace it with this one
http://www.pennyandgiles.com/docGallery/79.PDF

I replaced the original ALPS faders in the Control 24 with P&G's and it worked perfect. HUGE upgrade....
And in that application I had to go as far as reversing the motor polarity and installing the fader 'upside-down' ,
as the motor orientation was at the top, where the ALPS was at the bottom, and this prohibited it from clearing a PCB unless flipped

This is the same exact thing that I'm talking about doing now.
All I'm going to do is replace the FW faders with a fader that also passes audio.
The Linear Servo Track will be the same specs so it will still work EXACTLY the same as the servo only faders it comes with

Very simple

I'm not sure I'd use a BCF for something like this. I guess it would work, but you'd be putting cheap guts behind expensive faders.

I do think I found a source (Not P&G) for a Log, Linear/Servo, Touch fader that may be quality. I'm awaiting a sample.
At $58 per fader in small quantities it seems a very viable solution to the fader issue.
I'd much rather have P&G's, but once you buy 40 at $388 you could have bought an Uptown system.... That's defeating the point here.

 

[Shorty]

Hi there,

I share Jim's doubts: Check the µcapps-page for their MF-board: http://www.ucapps.de/. This board works with a number of Motor-Faders and does NOT with a number of others. You can also search through the application-pdf's on the Microchip Homepage. They have many documents regarding motor-control via Microcontroller. It's all a bit more complicated than it looks at first. So I dropped the idea of a motor control and therefore sold my Tascam M-3500 to buy a real Mixer instead.

Chris

That's a pretty narrow way to look at this.

It almost goes the same as saying that because your car runs on gas, but not on diesel, you should just walk instead, because your car won't work?

Or because you can only use 2 different Trannies in MNATS 1176, and not every single one ever made will work, that you should just go buy a Empirical Labs because the MNATS 1176 won't work?

Just put unleaded gas and Lundahls in em and go....

 

[Skylar]

I do think I found a source (Not P&G) for a Log, Linear/Servo, Touch fader that may be quality. I'm awaiting a sample.
At $58 per fader in small quantities it seems a very viable solution to the fader issue.
I'd much rather have P&G's, but once you buy 40 at $388 you could have bought an Uptown system.... That's defeating the point here.

Would this be a TKD fader perchance?
I've heard very good things about TKD (Tokyo Ko-On Denpa).

http://www.tkd-corp.com/02_products/p_02motor_f.html
http://www.tkd-corp.com/02_products/pdf/p02_mf-914.pdf



Here's another possible source for motor faders, Made in Taiwan.
I tried contacting them, but never got a reply back.
Maybe someone else wants to try?

The interesting thing is that these guys are obviously the suppliers for TKD,
as their product lineup is the same, and their model #s / datasheets are identical.
http://www.potentiometer-manufacturer.com/motor-fader.htm
http://www.song-huei.com.tw/pdfimages/MF-914.pdf

So, if you were thinking about using TKD, you may be able to get a better price from Song-Huei—same product.

 

[Shorty]

I hadn't seen theirs, although I just sent them an email and will try to obtain a price and sample from them as well.

 

[smallbutfine]

Hi Shorty,
that is a cool way of thinking positive I must admit!
Yes, the faders inside those flying fader controllers are just motor controlled faders and shure there is a way to interface the automation brains with other (dedicated audio) motor faders by some kind of not too complicated translation circuitry, or there can just be an adequate type found to make it working more or less out-of-the-box. (I hope I am right that this is exactly what you are going to try...)
A good thing is that you are aware of the high pricing range and this raises the chance that the project goal can be successfully reached.

As for the midibox motorfader module there has to be said that the whole point of midibox is the doability for the average non-commercial home diyer with regard to time, cost and simplicity (in the hardware domain).
The hard work at the midibox projects is in the software development (os, drivers and applications) and Thorsten is doing a hell of a job testing and coding drivers for hardware that he finds suitable and gets his hands on. And he is pretty much a one-man-show!
Therefore I think Shorty's way of finding an automation solution for his console is probably much mo0re rewarding, because it is focussed on interfacing between a readily available steering circuitry and a fader that still can be selected to fit in as close as possible.

Some things to be said about the US-2400:
it can not be daisy chained outside the computer. It has only USB-MIDI interface, more than one of them must be configured in the DAW with seperate new midi ports physically and logically. OTOH midi implementation works just like mackie control with 2 extenders in one box + some exclusive additional controls minus hardware scribble strips and also has a native mode that can be fully used in some DAWs if I recall correctly (protools? Logic?).
Faders in the US-2400 feel very different to those in other controllers, and have not much in common with those in Behringers or Yammies controller boxes and digital consoles. Therefore, they are very silent and light - some say toyish, some say modern or convenient, but for sure they are very different. (I like both kinds of faders). The touch sensitivity is done by pressing the moving fader vertically down and move....no capacity-thing...works good.  If interfacing the brain to conventional audio motorfaders is really harder? Maybe yes, maybe not. I never opened mine.... im totally happy with what it is....esp. silent operation.
As far as I know the faders in the BCF2000 are just off the shelf audio motorfaders, but they lack touch sensitivity in hardware. In fact the software handles grabbing of the fader while it is moving and stops playback when the fader 'stucks' and moves in another direction (by force of the user. This feels very unprecise, so forget automation overdubbing....I never tried again after first experiments.

Kind regards,
Martin

 

[gemini86]

my bcf seems to work fine in automation overdubbing, you can adjust how long the fader will fight your movements until it goes to read, (it's under global edit, then adjust rotary knob 7 to the desired latency)

 

[smallbutfine]

OK, I might not have made myself clear enough about BCF overdubbing....
Yes it works. But it works in a somehow uncommon way and therefore feels strange to me. In regular touch sensitive fader overdubbing the fader immediately stops when you slightly touch it. The BCF fader needs to see that the fader moves somewhere else than the playback, means you feel it actually moving when you grab it. This might be an annoyance and prevent from precise and smooth fades, at least for me it does, no matter how latency is adjusted. I never got smooth and small changes in a volume curve working because my hand has to work against the fader movement first. I read that other users had exactly the same feeling, but if it works for you, it's at least a hell of a deal.
US-2400 is different to common touch sensitivity as well, as you have to press it down a little, like a button, but when you got used to it, it's just as comfortable and precise, for faster action i like it even better than conventional motorfaders.

Kind regards,
Martin

 

[gemini86]

I see what you're saying...

The bcf definitely is a cheap little box, you get what you pay for... which is why I thought it would be a good candidate for a donor controller, all ready with drivers for most software...]

anyway, still working on a million other things so this project is on the back burner for me.

 

[helterbelter]

Hi there,

just jumping in to this thread. I have 2 BCF controllers, and I have disassembled them for putting them into my custom ssl console (yes, it's heresy, haha).
The midi interface in it is fine (considering the rotaryencoders, leds, switchessetup, etc). But, the fadermoves are not so great indeed. I've been thinking of replacing faders too.
But after some thinking...
The humping moves could be caused by fadermotor itself, but I think it's caused by the type of signal that controls the motors. When you look at the fadermove (and listen to the motor), you'll notice that the motor is powered "full throttle". It's not a variable voltage that is sent to the fadermotor, just simply off, on, and reverse. This could be caused by a wrong choice of transistors that drive the motors, but more likely it's just simply the design of the controller itself. Everything in it should be as cheap as possible of course, that's the way how the behringercompany must design their stuff to be able to build affordable (or even cheap) equipment. (this is not a complaint !)

Also the missing of touch-sensitivity is a reason for me to switch over to another controller. Maybe just something like those small controllers with only 1 fader. It should be enough for my needs. Since it is used for automation, I wouldn't move more than 1 fader simultaneously anyway. For quick hands-on control I could use the BCF.

About the faders used in the BCF, they are 10k Lin single track, The motors run on 4,5 to 6 v, IIRC. Replacing them with more expensive ones will mean that you have to add a 10 to 12v voltagerail to the transistors. Maybe it's possible to cut a track on the PCB and connect it to the rail, but if that track also powers another circuit, then you'll probably fry something, haha.

And I read something about motorpots. Alps manufactures special motorpots specifically for this task. But they are pretty expensive, and need a powerfull supply (IIRC, up to 2000mA for each motor).

 

[juniorhifikit]

I hadn't seen theirs, although I just sent them an email and will try to obtain a price and sample from them as well.

I'm also waiting for price and availability quotes from TKD and Song-Huei.  I think they're used to large companies ordering thousands, so they may not bother to respond...  Every other traditional fader (P&G, Alps, etc) was just too expensive, thus the price of Tonelux's ShadowMix (which is a great product by the way, and Paul did a lot of leg work for the mute and solo, and the useful range of the faders).

I hadn't seen the $58 dual track (lin/log) touch sense fader.  Skylar, do you have a sample?

If I hear back from any of these companies, I'll post the results here.

 

[Skylar]

I hadn't seen the $58 dual track (lin/log) touch sense fader.  Skylar, do you have a sample?

If I hear back from any of these companies, I'll post the results here.

No, I don't have a sample.
I sent Song-Huei an email several months ago, asking for pricing on their motor faders.
If I remember correctly, I think I was asking about pricing for 1000 units.
I never heard from them.

It would be great to compare S-H and TKD prices (as I'm sure they're the same product).
But I really have no clue what prices are like from either company.

 

[Shorty]

Picking up the M-3500 tonight.

I'll tear into it this weekend and see what else can be modded, and what can be replaced with higher end stuff.

I haven't looked inside it yet, so we'll see what can be done once she's home.

I also have all the schematics, service manual, etc.....

Should have an ALPS and a P&G sample in by next week so I can take the first stab at automating a channel in it.

I also have a shot at some high end channel strip stuff, but we'll see how the console is laid out. Good price on the stuff.

I'd like to stuff it with NEVE, API, TELE, DIY, type modules if the console permits......

I'll get pics up as soon as I crack her open and have a game plan.

The goal here is going to be a poor mans S_S_L_TYPE_THINGY

Going for something highly modified on the analouge end, high quality, and automated.

Any suggestions on Brains for automation?
We discussed Tascam FW-1884's with FE-8's, BCF's, etc,

But what else is out there? Is there something from MIDIBOX or whatever that is fairly easily buildable?
I'd almost rather do it with something that is not pre-made... name brand....

Needs to be able to communicate with the likes of ProTools, Sonar, Nuendo, Logic, Reason, etc...
So I'm thinking of something that maybe operates in HUI emulation, or will be seen by any means as a surface.....

BTW: What are stock M-3500's selling for? I can't find a reference anywhere........

Mine has the stand and the meter bridge

If this all goes well, I might snatch another one and link them......

 

[smallbutfine]

I have seen them go for 500 Euros here in europe like around 800$US or even lower, normal used condition. Top condition around 850 euros.
Might be a very good buy nowadays.
Heard from people my soundtracs megas even sounds better, seen for 800 euros at a pro-seller used but paid as low as 200 (bad optics, but 100% functional serviced live console!) Silly low prices for smaller good analog consoles if they are not the top asked-for high-end company stuff like neve, api, telefunken, emt etc.
Hard nothing but good about the tascam, though. Seems pretty good value for the money.

Midibox:
Yes, there is a readily documented application available, emulating HUI, scalable hardware, motorfader board, leds, etc...BUT expect some time to get into it. (i.e. wiring of the modules. highly modular concept overall, used hardware can be adjusted in the pic's application headers relatively comfortable).
Complex? a bit, but very good documentation of all details.
http://www.ucapps.de/
Please read the introduction of the MIOS operating system concept and the introduction of the MB hardwre platform first to see what it's all about.
The application you can dive in afterwards is called MidiboxLC (logiccontrol...). Their forum is full of information as well, ppl are as helpful and polite as here...

Kind regards,
Martin