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Guys , maybe I'm jumping out of subject, but what you think about full-range drivers in studio monitoring? Something like this ?
http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.co.uk/
Considering both, simplicity and no crossover phase degradation, it seems V nice. Any comment?
 
[quote author="Marik"]
For Aluminums or Kevlars, besides higher order crossovers you might need to use a notch filter, as well. This is one of the reasons I want to use biamping with electronic crossover (at least for now).
[/quote]

Behringer DCX2496 (if you happen to find a one as Behringer now have problems with sourcing some part) might be an easy solution for the crossover and could be tuned for perfection.

Regarding the metal cone woofers there's one thing even notch filters can't cure: the 2nd or 3rd harmonics distortion components may wake up the resonant frequencies at the driver break up modes. Linkwitz discusses this regarding the Seas Excel W22EX001 driver here:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/mid_dist.htm
 
[quote author="Moby"]Guys , maybe I'm jumping out of subject, but what you think about full-range drivers in studio monitoring? Something like this ?
http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.co.uk/
Considering both, simplicity and no crossover phase degradation, it seems V nice. Any comment?[/quote]

They are ok for tracking vocals and such work but not for mixing or mastering. Actually the drivers aren't "full-range", just "wide-range". Something like a 3" or 2" driver with subwoofer used at near field might be good, one problem is the break up modes at higher frequencies (see http://www.zaphaudio.com and http://www.zaphaudio.com/minitest/ for a nice test and a design of these 3" drivers).
 
They are ok for tracking vocals and such work but not for mixing or mastering. Actually the drivers aren't "full-range", just "wide-range". Something like a 3" or 2" driver with subwoofer used at near field might be good, one problem is the break up modes at higher frequencies (see http://www.zaphaudio.com and http://www.zaphaudio.com/minitest/ for a nice test and a design of these 3" drivers).
Cool, but i think you didn't browse the link.
I'm talking about 23.2cm drivers, with fr of 30 Hz - 22 kHz and air resonance of 36hz! I think that be cool incorporated with some nice 12" sub drivers crossover-ed around 50hz. Maybe some super-tweeter can be added above 12khz :roll:
 
Marik,

That waveguide that you gave a pointer to is infact a horn flare that expects a threaded compression driver. Was that your intention? If so, what brand and model compression driver have you been successful with using this kind of waveguide in a studio monitor.

In my case I have built similar waveguides by turning wood on a lathe and bolting dome tweeters to the backside. I would be interested in hearing a success story that used a compression driver and the described plastic flare.
 
DUH!!! The guys at the company I was going to order the drivers emailed today. The shielding they thought would work does not completely remove the field, so the speakers should be at least 6-8" from the monitor. The Seas magnetic caps sold separately not that efficient either. It leaves the only choice of shielded W18E, which at $167 a piece is a little bit too much at the moment. Besides, it has some major issues.

Anybody knows a good way to completely eliminate the field? Large steel plates inside together with backing magnets?

Regarding the metal cone woofers there's one thing even notch filters can't cure: the 2nd or 3rd harmonics distortion components may wake up the resonant frequencies at the driver break up modes. Linkwitz discusses this regarding the Seas Excel W22EX001 driver here:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/mid_dist.htm

Yes, I saw that. The only cure is crossover frequency at least two octaves below the main peak. With using Excels, which main peak is usually at 5-5.5K, the crossover point should be below 1.2K, which is quite low and puts a lot of stress on a tweeter.

The L15 and L18 look much better, with main resonances at 8K and 7K respectively, pulling the crossover point up into 2K region.
Zath believes they are almost as good as Excels more than half of the price.
Wait a second... If there is a good way to shield them, why not?

Of course, using treated paper cones would be a very easy solution to this problem and there are some excellent species there, but in general they are not as transparent as metal ones.

Question: what do you think, would be a 7" too big for close (about 3') listening?
 
[quote author="Moby"]
Cool, but i think you didn't browse the link.
I'm talking about 23.2cm drivers, with fr of 30 Hz - 22 kHz and air resonance of 36hz! I think that be cool incorporated with some nice 12" sub drivers crossover-ed around 50hz. Maybe some super-tweeter can be added above 12khz :roll:[/quote]

I don't have experience with these particular drivers. However, generally Lowthers, besides quite uneven response in midrange, are quite weak in the bass. Yes, they advertize air resonance in 30-40Hz region, but in reality they don't give any bass--the reason why "one driver lovers with money" load them with huge horns, which introduce more problems than what they cure.

And the prices are... let's say premium.

That waveguide that you gave a pointer to is infact a horn flare that expects a threaded compression driver. Was that your intention? If so, what brand and model compression driver have you been successful with using this kind of waveguide in a studio monitor.

Carl,

The thread should be milled down to except a dome. Look here:

http://www.zaphaudio.com/hornconversion.html
 
> resonance of 36hz!

And Qt about 0.22.

In a sealed box, you want Q near 1, so the resonance must shift to 36Hz/0.22= 164Hz, cutoff about 0.8 times that or 131Hz. Alternatively we could do a Butter-box, Q=0.7: (36/0.22)*0.7= -3dB at 114Hz.

A tuned box may be able to get another octave on this: 60Hz at best. Tuned-pipe designs face the same issues, usually needing more space. A back-horn can extend response as low as you can want, or as low as you have space for, but now you have a gross discontinuity between direct-radiator action and what comes out of a long horn at a later time at a different efficiency.

An 8-inch cone (any cone) has 180-360 degree dispersion in the bass but tends to have 60 degree dispersion at 13,500/7"= 2KHz, 30 degree at 4KHz, etc. The curvilinear cone shifts this a half-octave, the wizzer kicks in somewhere, the front-lump scatters sound in the 5KHz-10KHz band. But the efficiency of that 11-gram 7-inch cone has been falling since 1KHz, slightly shifted by decoupling; still, past 2KHz you can either have flat response or broad directivity, not both (unless you apply a lot of EQ).

I really really like wide-range speakers. I think the JBL E-130 and Fostex FE-103 are one of the best speakers ever made. But the sweetspot is small and the highs just float on a beam, don't fill the room.

It also is not hard to show that, for typical monitoring level, even a 10"+2" 2-way is honking lots of FM distortion. A laborious derivation shows that this is a function of the cube of the bandwidth, so reasonable-side direct radiators will drown in FM working "full"-range.

As I said, I like full-range drivers and may switch to monitoring on them. But at very close-range, fixed head position, and with a subwoofer taking the heavy work. And I'm not mixing pop-hits, mostly trimming choir concerts.

Man! 24,000 Gauss, 3.5% ref eff! Those prices are not excessive for that level of raw performance.
 
I don't have experience with these particular drivers. However, generally Lowthers, besides quite uneven response in midrange, are quite weak in the bass. Yes, they advertize air resonance in 30-40Hz region, but in reality they don't give any bass--the reason why "one driver lovers with money" load them with huge horns, which introduce more problems than what they cure.

And the prices are... let's say premium.
I agree :sad: I searched little more about them and found lot of bad stories... But i still believe that designing around some "full-range" can be interesting. I hate to hear crossovers around 100hz and specially around 1-3 khz! Simply, makes me nervous about bass\kick and voice mixing :mad:
 
[quote author="PRR"]
Man! 24,000 Gauss, [/quote]

It sounds quite optimistic.

I calculated flux for two N50 5"x2"x5" Neo magnets with 0.5 mm distance and zero-loss magnetic return path and got 14.473 Gauss.

I was trying all possible combinations of numbers (up to 10"x10"x10", and this is for two magnets (!!!)) and could not reach even 15.000 Gauss. At certain points the flux on the magnet surface would drop down, compare the flux in the gap (i.e. severe saturation).

PRR, could you please contact your friend to find out what's going on here?
 
[quote author="Moby"]I agree I searched little more about them and found lot of bad stories... [/quote]

Actually, they are very nice. I heard a few different models. When they are not pusjed to their limits the sound is very pleasing. The build quality is superb. I just don't believe they were meant for studio monitors.

[quote author="Moby"]I hate to hear crossovers around 100hz and specially around 1-3 khz! Simply, makes me nervous about bass\kick and voice mixing :mad:[/quote]

Then Jordan JX92S might be interesting. It is a metal cone, can be used full range, Fs 45 Hz, extension to 20 kHz, Qts 0.44, Vas 12.18 liters, SPL efficiency 86.45 dB 1m 1W.

Another (cheaper) alternative:

http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/CSS-FR125-intro.pdf
 
Then Jordan JX92S might be interesting. It is a metal cone, can be used full range, Fs 45 Hz, extension to 20 kHz, Qts 0.44, Vas 12.18 liters, SPL efficiency 86.45 dB 1m 1W
Looks nice, but I'm not sure about 'metal" speakers. Paper looks (sounds) much natural for my taste. What about this?
http://www.supravox.com/drivers.html
 
For 2-way also Hi-Vi D5.8 or D6.8 might be good, they look like Dynaudio clones:
http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID4956567DD501372-Hi-Vi-RESEARCH.aspx

Auram Cantus G2Si is a quite inexpensive (propably chinese) ribbon:
http://www.e-speakers.com/catalog/aurum_cantus_g2si_4284956.htm. With the Hi-Vi D6.8 it migh be a good combination.

Ok, there are too many drivers to choose from, the aluminium Seas woofers are good choice anyway, they can be used with the 27TDFC and crossed ~2k or even below (if you use the waveguide). Can't you really depart from the CRT monitor and use a TFT instead? The fullrangers look temping and also sound excellent but not with all kind of music, vocals and jazz is their best area, but they don't rock.
 
[quote author="Moby"]
Looks nice, but I'm not sure about 'metal" speakers. Paper looks (sounds) much natural for my taste. What about this?
http://www.supravox.com/drivers.html[/quote]

There is nothing wrong with metal cones, really. The problem is a right implementation. Due to the piston motion with no flexes the distortions can be VERY low in bass/mid region. When they go up the piston motion of the cone cannot keep up with a voice coil anymore, resulting in breakups. Those breakups result in a harsh metal sound they accused for. Cross it two octaves below the main peak, use notch filter and you might get dreamed away with precision, clarity, and transparency only electrostatics or good planars could give, without usual problems of big panels.

Paper cones also have these breakups, but the modes get absorbed by internal damping of material. Since the paper is much more flexible, distortions are usually much higher (and in a sense, can be more pleasant).

In this respect, smaller paper cones are better. In fact, the CSS FR125 I mentioned above, is a paper and might be very interesting at $150 a pair.

I am not familiar with Supravoxes. As a rule, if you want to get a good off axis the top intended frequency wavelength for the driver should not exceed cone size. If you want a wide range driver to go high, crossing with super tweeter, it should be small enough (i. e. not more than 4"). But here we are with a problem smaller cones won't move enough air when going low, and with higher volumes would just run out of excursion.

Compromises, compromises...

Can't you really depart from the CRT monitor and use a TFT instead?

Mhelin,

You are evil! :grin:

Yes, in fact I start reconsidering things and thinking more in Seas Excel direction.
Arguably, both are the very best speakers of their size, in existance, and both are... very pretty.

Now, only decide W15 (5'5") or W18 (7"). Both have their very strong points.

The main question--are 7 inchers too big for near field?

DISCUSS!!!
 
Due to the piston motion with no flexes the distortions can be VERY low in bass/mid region. When they go up the piston motion of the cone cannot keep up with a voice coil anymore, resulting in breakups. Those breakups result in a harsh metal sound they accused for

Marik, thanks for explanation, obviously i listened bad designed crossover, not "metal" drivers..
To be honnest , i jumped in this topic because I'm thinking about DIY main studio monitors, not near-field... Sorry if i messed something. Maybe will be nice to start new topic called DIY main monitors based on the wide range driver... Maybe... :roll:
 
> It sounds quite optimistic.

Not by a lot. Ceramic-magnet woofers, which don't want absolute max flux, routinely run 8,000 Gauss. Hot woofers 10,000 to 14,000 Gauss. Maximum-output compression drivers, like JBL 2440 (4" coil, 2" exit, too heavy to lift with one hand) do run 20,000 Gauss.

Note that a speaker gap is different from your ribon gaps. The 2440's magnet has an end-area about 7 square inches or 4,500 sq.mm. The coil gap is 4"/100mm in diameter and 1mm tall, or 100 sq.mm area. The magnet flux is concentrated 4,500/100 = 45:1. If you get 1,000 Gauss at the face of Alnico, you (seem to) get 45,000 Gauss in the gap. In fact half your flux will leak, and past ~10,000 Gauss ordinary steel saturates. You go with special steel (Lowther mentions some magic here) and keep the path area large until as close as possible to the gap (tapered pole-piece). Even so, you have to push excess magnetism through the pole against increasing saturation.

Using these obscene magnetic fields lets Lowther use a relatively "heavy" cone, compared to common designs of similar efficiency. Heavy lets them dope-up with wood-pulp or banana-peel or whatever magic stuff they use to take the papery sound out of their cones.

> the Manger driver looks promising, it's maybe the most promising "full-range" ever:

Hmmmm. As they boast, the idea runs back to Rice and Kellog. Not the breakfast cereal, these are the guys who invented the practical cone loudspeaker. The root math is derived (the hard way) in these papers.

> Haven't seen off-axis measurement though.

Note that the paper (they are both the same, one cribs from the other) does not go into the VERY complex (by this analysis) response off-axis except by a general guess: The time history of the sound pressure at positions off the symmetry axis can be obtained from the above equations only after lengthy numerical evaluations. Presumably, the gradual decay of the function Jo(kra) for increasing arguments causes a "rounding-off of the corners in the time history" for small distances from the symmetry axis, and a completely different time history for points further away. For the ideal case, this looks right. "Completely different time history" is maybe not the result we seek (though for indirect sound, time-history may be meaningless). However for the practical case of 7 inch round disk with felt stuck to it, the actual vibration pattern is far from a theoretical resistive radiator. Those Dopplers sure show very NON-uniform sound distribution at higher frequencies, though they are probably cleaner than paper cones. (Impossible to tell, because you can adjust interferometer scale to emphasize or hide actual amplitudes.)

I doubt their motor can give large amplitude; aside from a rather low-excursion motor and a diaphragm that would become non-linear at high amplitude, any more than around 0.050" excursion in the upper speech range will give large FM intermodulation. Since 0.050" and 7" does not give enough displacement for bass, we are back to a subwoofer.

This is also the objection to high levels from the FR125S. 6mm Xmax in a full-range is insane: the highs will be all IM mush. Note that they show multiples in array, and also a subwoofer. I reject arrays (even MTMs) for accurate monitoring (very useful in hi-fi and commercial sound). If you don't mind a crossover at ~150Hz, the FR125S plus a boomer may be interesting. But at 86dB SPL/W, they are not likely to blow you out of your seat.

> ~2k or even below (if you use the waveguide).

The MCM "waveguide" cited above looks like a good exponential horn with 3KHz cut-off. If it is a perfect exponential flare, the diaphragm will gain loading below 8KHz but then UN-load below 3KHz. If you want to get to 2KHz, try a 90 degree cone with 1" base and at least 3" mouth on a baffle. A conical horn will not give as much boost ~3.5KHz as the exponential horn, but won't cut-off abruptly, and will give some increase of loading at 2KHz. A clever woodworker can cut a conical horn in a 1" piece of wood, either on a lathe or with clever jigs and a router with a V-bit.

> main monitors based on the wide range driver...

It is shockingly hard to meet, much less beat, the old Westlake wooden horns. A JBL 2440 driver on a large diffraction horn can give fairly uniform directivity across a control room, 500Hz-9KHz, at VERY high levels. Compared to any cone, it is a much less colored system. It is also nothing like the systems everyday people will play your recordings on.
 
[quote author="PRR"]
Note that a speaker gap is different from your ribbon gaps. The 2440's magnet has an end-area about 7 square inches or 4,500 sq.mm. The coil gap is 4"/100mm in diameter and 1mm tall, or 100 sq.mm area. The magnet flux is concentrated 4,500/100 = 45:1. If you get 1,000 Gauss at the face of Alnico, you (seem to) get 45,000 Gauss in the gap.
[/quote]

There is something I cannot make work. I was able to get 7,700 flux over 1/4" gap, with 2"x0.75"x0.3" magnets. I milled triangle shaped poles, concentrating the 2"x0.75" area into 2"x0.05". Over the same 0.25" gap the flux dropped down to almost 6,000 Gauss. I am using mild steel, which should be OK. I get the same effect with much smaller gaps.

May be the brutal mass of neodymium and iron in a speaker motor explains it? But on the other hand I am well under 1Tesla, so saturation is not that big of the problem. There is obviously something I am missing, but what?

FWIW, (for ribbons) the width of the magnet is more important than thickness. For example, the aforementioned magnet (2"Lx0.75"Wx0.3"T) gives 7,700 Gauss, but 2"Lx0.3"Wx0.75T will give 7,450 Gauss.

From experience, calculator and measured values are very close.
 
[quote author="mhelin"]Also the Manger driver looks promising, it's maybe the most promising "full-range" ever
[/quote]

First, little bit of history...

Once I was very much into all kind of audiophilery and audiofoolery.

I started with electrostatics (building from scratch, as well as servicing/rebuilding Quad 57s and Martin Logans). Then I went into ribbons, building from scratch planars (glueing wire and later cutting and glueing foil on Mylar, using UV cured glues), and then true ribbons.

After I came to US, I decided I hate electrostatics/planars/ribbons and wanted to try something else.

The "true" omni solution along with proper room treatment seemed the next step in reproduced sound nirvana, so I made a couple of plasma tweeters and purchased a pair of Ohm Walsh wave-bendings. The problem was I could not find the filling in the mids. I found a fabulous midranges--Audax PR170MO, with 100db sensitivity, which I mounted on open baffle in between. The problem was they did not fit--there was something wrong with sound of omni mid-bass and tweeters, with fig 8 in the middle.

I got quite frustrated, and the Walshes ended up at Ebay and the plasmas (which BTW, were quite spectacular tweeters) dismounted.

The next evolution (open baffle) was built around those Audaxes, with Heil Air Motion Transformers on the top, and couple Titanic (open baffle, with EQ) woofers on the bottom.

The sound was quite good. Actually, it was very good... good enough that after my professor heard it, he bought the whole system (it was tri-amped, with CF output tube amps and LCR passive crossovers at the front, tube pre with all kind of audiofool components and incomporated DAC, beautiful wood work with natural cherry veneer, and so on).
Wait a second... when did I have time to study cum laude, date my now wife, teach at university 30 hours a week, and also prepare and play recitals???... :shock: :shock: :shock:

Needless to say, for the money I got for the system I lived and dated my lovely Finnish girl (now wife) at least for a year.

So, where I was? Oh yeah, somewhere in the middle I got those Manger puppies. They stayed in my home exactly for a month and after that ended up on Ebay (my only regret was I lost about half I payed for them).

They were flat, kinda nice... The interesting thing was that whenether I listen to them (I mounted them different ways and considering the money I payed, spent literally hundreds of hours listening), I really did not care whether music sounded or not. It was very interesting sensation--like looking at strikingly beautiful women and getting bored just from the fact of looking.

Some people might like them (esp. thinking of the pocket). But they would be the last drivers I'd think of using. Lowthers are much more exciting!!!... With all their inperfections.

As for mains, I'd really consider something built around paper cone Audax PR170MO mids I mentioned above (usable from 200Hz to 8KHz, from memory), with whatever you like on the top and bottom ends. Just checked Madisound-they discontinued them. Fortunately, I still have two pairs of those.
 

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