do taxpayer's need a lobby too?

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

JohnRoberts

Well-known member
Staff member
GDIY Supporter
Moderator
Joined
Nov 30, 2006
Messages
29,713
Location
Hickory, MS
Watching the recent shenanigans in congress unfold, I am struck by how much these elected representatives seem to be acting against the best interest of taxpayers in their district.

It is the nature of our system that everybody gets to represent their interest with lobbyists in Washington, and this current health care legislation is a long shopping list of deals cut with all these different groups. You can almost mark on the calendar when the sundry back room deals get cut, or fail in the press releases (AMA , AARP, et al). One question that is welling up in me, is who is representing me (us) the taxpayer?

That is presumably the job of our elected representative. Our leverage is supposed to be that we vote him/her out of office if they don't please us, but it is becoming harder to simply lump all voters together as being taxpayers. The progressive shifting of tax burden from the majority to minority feels like "taxation without representation" for this minority, so I understand the sentiment of the tea party participants, but technically they are incorrect. They are represented but in simple democracy minority viewpoints get the hind teat. The majority of voters can simply vote to continue shifting their tax burden onto others (until they kill the golden goose). It is their short term self interest, and how most humans act. It is the job of the senate, our upper house, to have the sense to do what is in our long term best interest and not be swayed by short term popular thought. If the true majority of the country actually understands what their leadership is embracing, then more power to them, our flexible government system at work.  OTOH if it is a minority viewpoint, within the current majority seated in the legislature, opportunistically promoting their minority agenda, it needs to be resisted.

It seems taxpayers on their way to becoming a minority, need organization (taxpayers union http://www.ntu.org/ ) lobbyists too. We need to hire people to represent us, especially when it is in the legislators own self interest to cater to some other majority.

We have one thing on our side... taxpayers are often politically interested and reliable voters. The recent governor's races showed how unreliable the coat tails were from all the independent and new voters in the 2008 election. It will be interesting to see how the marginal votes in congress shift as time goes on and more public inspection of the proposed policy occurs. This is a bill that will not look better as time passes, they will keep rushing to pass it sooner rather than later, to avoid this thoughtful inspection. At some point these marginal seats in congress will become more afraid of us, than their party leadership, and come around.

Only 46 shopping days till christmas... but less than 365 until mid term elections... I can't wait. It won't come soon enough for me.

JR

caveat.. I am not a joiner, so no nothing about NTU beyond googling them. 
 
John, check your County Board of Elections site to see the turnout of your election last week.  My county turnout was 22%.  TWENTY-TWO PERCENT
The people, taxpayers and entitlement receivers, are a bunch of lazy sots who are locked in Their Matrix.  The taxpayers ARE a lobby if they go vote.  They ARE term limits if they go vote.  They make change if they contact their representatives and ask them to explain how their votes are Constitutional.  How did Pelosi answer that one- "Are you JOKING?!?"
The lobbyists have entered the vacuum created by a nation of self-absorbed people, uninformed of and disconnected from the ideals of the founding of this country, and the politicians know that.  We get the government that we, erm, collectively deserve, and that has become the best government money can buy.

We have a crazy local ballot initiative pending, where they want to carve the Town I live in into four pieces, each piece votes for a single councilman rather than the entire town voting for all councilmen.  This was petitioned by a strange cabal of liberal and conservative groups that think they have a solid chance to get a liberal or conservative elected if this is passed.  I am absolutely against it and will vote accordingly.  The date of the vote for the ballot initiative?  December 22  No one I ask even knows about it, so I have been very busy.
Mike

 
We need to hire people to represent us

Those people already exist.  They are called Senators and Representatives.

They already should be representing us.  The problem is that we don't go through the trouble of keeping them in check.  They get in office and do as they please, which is usually self-serving.

I say knock the pay rate down to a respectable number and bust all of their amenities down to the working-man's level and see who steps up to represent us.

Our forefathers did it for NOTHING but the pride.  Now you can get in office and be setup for the rest of your life on our tax money.

 
owel said:
Two words...

Term Limits

There would need to be term limits for staff too...  I suspect simple short term limits in congress would shift power even more to behind the scenes operators.

The quid pro quo of buying votes is hard to ever avoid when the nature of congresses job is spending money and voters often keep score of how much money is spent at home... while the better thing to count is how much money is taxed and spent unwisely. A large and growing percentage.

=====

+1 to sodderboy, yes people who actually vote have far more power over those who don't.
=======
I am still waiting for the internet to be more revealing of all the funny business and hope we are getting closer to that day of near perfect information about everything. It would take a lot of the power out of negative political ads, and dirty tricks. 

I still like my old idea that every candidate for public office is sworn in to tell the truth and held liable for perjury for every untruthful public utterance until he becomes a private citizen again. We could do this already if we paid attention.

JR

PS: Yes SVART they technically represent "ALL" of us.... but they don't always act that way. They can still promote a lot more of their (IMO minority) agenda between now and 2010/2012, when we next get to critique whether we received the package that we thought we were promised in the campaign. I recall a lot of speeches and debates that sounded far more centrist and moderate than the legislation and behavior we are getting from congress and the white house now. Of course opinions vary, and people tend to hear what they they want to hear. That said I was against this crew, based on what I heard then, before they revealed how far from the center they really were. It is the nature of our system for political power to swing like a pendulum back toward equilibrium (center to center-right), so they know their time is limited and thus the urgency to Rahm through legislation sooner rather than later. We keep hearing politicians describing this as a once in a lifetime opportunity. Clearly if it was actually wanted by the general population, it wouldn't be such a rare opportunity would it? They'd have to work to avoid doing it.



 
JohnRoberts said:
Watching the recent shenanigans in congress unfold, I am struck by how much these elected representatives seem to be acting against the best interest of taxpayers in their district.

It is the nature of our system that everybody gets to represent their interest with lobbyists in Washington, and this current health care legislation is a long shopping list of deals cut with all these different groups. You can almost mark on the calendar when the sundry back room deals get cut, or fail in the press releases (AMA , AARP, et al). One question that is welling up in me, is who is representing me (us) the taxpayer?

That is presumably the job of our elected representative. Our leverage is supposed to be that we vote him/her out of office if they don't please us, but it is becoming harder to simply lump all voters together as being taxpayers. The progressive shifting of tax burden from the majority to minority feels like "taxation without representation" for this minority, so I understand the sentiment of the tea party participants, but technically they are incorrect. They are represented but in simple democracy minority viewpoints get the hind teat. The majority of voters can simply vote to continue shifting their tax burden onto others (until they kill the golden goose). It is their short term self interest, and how most humans act. It is the job of the senate, our upper house, to have the sense to do what is in our long term best interest and not be swayed by short term popular thought. If the true majority of the country actually understands what their leadership is embracing, then more power to them, our flexible government system at work.  OTOH if it is a minority viewpoint, within the current majority seated in the legislature, opportunistically promoting their minority agenda, it needs to be resisted.

It seems taxpayers on their way to becoming a minority, need organization (taxpayers union http://www.ntu.org/ ) lobbyists too. We need to hire people to represent us, especially when it is in the legislators own self interest to cater to some other majority.

We have one thing on our side... taxpayers are often politically interested and reliable voters. The recent governor's races showed how unreliable the coat tails were from all the independent and new voters in the 2008 election. It will be interesting to see how the marginal votes in congress shift as time goes on and more public inspection of the proposed policy occurs. This is a bill that will not look better as time passes, they will keep rushing to pass it sooner rather than later, to avoid this thoughtful inspection. At some point these marginal seats in congress will become more afraid of us, than their party leadership, and come around.

Only 46 shopping days till christmas... but less than 365 until mid term elections... I can't wait. It won't come soon enough for me.

JR

caveat.. I am not a joiner, so no nothing about NTU beyond googling them.  

Actually, all we need to do is get a few guns and start shooting their people? That usually gets their attention, nothing else really does. Violence is the predominate method of communication, especially for them.

What ever made you think it was a Democracy? They hate Democracy?

EDIT: Of course, i'm joking.
 
You won't win with bullets, even as a joke.  Maybe it was those brownies you had?
I am more in the mood for a national tax revolt.  Those who sign-on file their 1040's, but pay their taxes to an established Tax Revolt escrow account.  You can do it with a negligent landlord, why not a negligent government?  Even the employed can legally claim 20 dependents to get their whole check, and pay taxes quarterly as "required by law".  The un-funded entitlement liabilities accruing in DC is appalling, and growing thanks to Medicare part D and now the specter of "revenue neutral" Healthcare Reform" and illegal ammnesty.
The problem is that if people cannot even get out of their inner world to vote for a local pol, fire commissioner, library or school budget, then they are too comfortable to care.  When they are finally uncomfortable, will it be too late for their vote to matter? 
Mike
 
I am still waiting for the internet to be more revealing of all the funny business and hope we are getting closer to that day of near perfect information about everything. It would take a lot of the power out of negative political ads, and dirty tricks.

Who is trying to kill 'net neutrality?  The government?  OH man.

Who already stalks the internet putting flags on people and websites that they deem inappropriate? The government?  UH oh..

What gives them the "right" by law to do it? The Patriot Act?  oh NO!

Who gave them the Patriot Act? Our "representatives", acting on our behalf?  oh shit!

Who gave them the power to police their own constituents and secretly do away with those who openly dissent?  Our "representatives".  We're screwed!

Who let them get away with it all?  WE did.


 
I am encouraged by the new attention that people are paying to government in months that don't start with N. I doubt that this group of citizens now awake, will go back to sleep any time soon. But there is much work to do, awareness is only the first step.

JR

 
My 2 cents:  "We all live in a Mafia neighborhood now"  Sam Smith

  And the response:

    'Rise like Lions after slumber
    In unvanquishable number -
    Shake your chains to earth like dew
    Which in sleep had fallen on you -
    Ye are many - they are few.'

  Percy Bysshe Shelley - The Mask of Anarchy

  We don't need a lobby: What we need is a revolution within our own hearts and minds that prepares the way.  The "Elite" are scared $hitless of the reality of Shelly's statement.  Their greatest fear would be the world turning on them: because we outnumber them so greatly.  A peaceful revolution would truly be their undoing because they desire a violent reaction from us so they have the justifiable excuse of sending in the troops and martial law.  Prepare the way in your hearts, and keep yer powder dry.
 
Trust fund anarchists always keep their powder dry- SNIFF!
puh-leeze.
People would miss the new episode of "Weeds" if they were called to storm the castle.  Plus, remember our "forging Harbor Freight chinese plowshares into swords" discussion, chinese pitchforks bend quite easily. . .
Mike
 
  I am a paycheck away from the street and yet I can find the courage to have a ready heart.
 
The problem is that you have to form a movement and gain a significant force of persons in secret.  Do so in the open and the government will step in a use their "force" to stop you up to and including killing you regardless of your intent to be peaceful.  Waco anyone?

The problem is that we've allowed the government to become self-aware.  Now they do things *for* us autonomously.  See my previous post about the patriot act.  I would have never voted for such a thing as to allow the government to have ultimate power to "protect" me.  Time and time again this world has witnessed what happens when a single entity has the power to make law and govern.  That power starts well meaning enough but always ends up dictating it's will to the masses, usually with an "or else" at the end.

The other problem is that there is no longer an accountability in our government.  They say that they are doing things but how do we know they actually follow through with what they say?  How do we know that they aren't doing things they said they weren't doing?  How do we even begin to investigate the government?

The problem is that we can't investigate the government as citizens.  Anybody who tries usually gets the "national security" excuse or gets a severely edited document through the Freedom of Information Act..  Editing that cites "national security" again..

Anybody who doubts what our government is capable of or has seriously considered doing to it's own people needs to look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

The parallels to certain modern events is scary.


Also, read through this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Jewels_%28Central_Intelligence_Agency%29

and see that the government has admitted to wiretapping, tailing, warrant-less-ly performing searches/seizures, etc common citizens and reporters for decades..


 
 Look at the myriad ways that we are mislead to view one another with suspicion, distrust, fear and hate.  Observe the multitude of means that the powerful use to atomize and disperse us against one-another from the simple distractions to the involved invective.  Class against class, race against race, citizen against immigrant, man against man in so many ways until all who are not YOU are identified as YOUR ENEMY.  What a sorry state to be so expertly mislead into: And they are so expert a misleading us into where they want us to be: Against one another.

  Why is Rush Limbaugh paid $40 million dollars a year?  To be a willing engine of "the powers that be" of dissonance, discord, disease and deception.  Why does Alex Jones have his prison planet website?  For the same reasons.

 Martin Luther King Jr. was the most dangerous man in America for this very reason: He knew that the unity of a people brought together with love would undo the dreams of "the powers that be".  He knew the Power That IS, The Great I AM.  It does not matter if you believe in God: Do you love your neighbor?  Even the little love that it takes to leave someone at peace who does not live as you would have them live. And this is more important: That YOU are at peace in accepting all who are not like YOU.  That is all that matters, and yet I continue to fail in this simple task.

 Peace, C
 
Rush Limbaugh sells 120M worth of crap to his listeners every year- vacuums, hair pills, meat, etc.  People pay mega millions to watch A-Rod do baseball and buy his jersey and stuff.  They pay big buckaroonies to Hollywood film stars to watch their movie things and munch stale $20 popcorn.  MSNBC pays Keith Olberman for, I think, whatever his 1000 viewers buy.  Whats the point?  The anarchists point is simply to torch it, get laid in the mess, and then go torch something else.  There is no "exit strategy".  It's caveman politics.
They just want to destroy their neighbors goods and covet what didn't burn, rather than produce and sell them a better horse feed, or mattress, or whatever.  They want to burn the village, but then, oops, where we gonna sleeeep myan?  Who's gonna make the vendi mochafrappas?

The founding of the United States of America had nothing to do with anarchists; they were not invited and for a very good reason.  Why?  Because anarchy is the antithesis to a civil society. 
Ya' know, Cato or Heritage will send anyone a freebie Declaration of Independence and Constitution if they are interested.  Good place to start.
Mike
 
Umm this stream of unconsciousness is remarkable...

There is nothing about this current administration that we can't undo, within the present system, other than unspend money already spent. While entitlements prove hard to take away once people get used to suckling from the government teat.

When people begin already convinced that they can't succeed they are universally correct, but not because they couldn't succeed, but because they guaranteed their own failure with self limitation.

Changing the bad behavior of congress is not easy, but turning the ship back toward the political center should be relatively easy since it takes so much effort to drive it far left or far right, against the will of the people.

I guess the first step is not just paying attention. We must believe that it is not a fait accompli... we can and will make a difference.

No new revolution needed, just righting the ship and getting it back on course, by making our voices heard, and voting the turds out in 2010/2012.

JR



 
And I respectfully disagree John.  I think that the government has successfully created a country that can only be as they accept it to be.  On one side you have the fake votes, lobbyists, greased palms, etc.  On the other side you have laws that have diminished our rights and make it impossible to revolt against a tyrannical government, as our government will surely be soon (or ask those in other countries that have felt our military action and you'll hear that we already ARE a tyrannical government..).

It may or may not be a grand scheme by some secret society but the problem is that most people are blissfully ignorant to the government's dirty underbelly.  This, of course, is because of the government's hand in most media outlets and control of financial structure.  Do we need the IRS? no.  Do we need to give the government money to do their jobs?  Yes AND no.  Yes, service is an industry that has no tangible product but we do get something in return.  No, because we give money but I estimate that the majority of the money we give, we give without knowing the TRUE recipient.  Did I intentionally pay taxes to fund a war? NO.  Did I pay taxes that ended up funding a war? YES.  Do I want to continue to pay taxes to fund a war? NO.  Is there anything I can do about it? NO.  Stop paying taxes and end up fined and/or in jail (this is the "or else" I spoke of earlier..).

The other problem is that people are gullible in general.  Politicians lie.  They tell people what they want to hear and then do as they please as our representatives for the most part.  Some of those "good guys" in government never get very far and they are rarely heard from, mostly because they are few and far between.



 
Individuals can choose to accept defeat, I still have confidence in the design of our system by our founders who were extremely well informed about the abuses of strong central government power and engineered in checks and balances.

We must remain vigilant when schemers scheme, as is their nature. We have czars in the administration who aren't vetted by congress, and a congress that seems to ignore the wishes of their constituents. Both those and a long laundry list of other constitutional deviations can be corrected by throwing the bums out.. In less than a year now, we can change the tenor in congress. 

We don't need anarchy. While this seems like a rapid and severe swing, if you look at our history such swings have occurred before. and have always corrected before.

I remain optimistic, There was an old Franklin quote about trading liberty for security. I believe we still have enough folks here who value liberty.

JR

PS: it is the nature of high political office to be seduced by power (spending authority). Thus the openness and limitations designed into the system. I even find the visitors list to white house interesting reading, but all this too will pass.
 
I don't know how anarchy is playing into this.  I'm simply saying that a politician who gets into higher office is either part of the "system" already, WILL be part of the "system" or will be OUT of the "system" quickly.

Case in point: Obama and Guantanamo..  Before election: "CLOSE IT!!"  After election: "WE NEED IT"..

I don't believe any politician.  I suppose i've lost that American can-do attitude but I don't ever see anyone I want to vote for on the ballots..  How am I supposed to "change" anything when all I see are the same two parties who say they are different but are welcome bedfellows?  At least in my town, they talk a lot of shit about each other but when in office I have yet to actually see/hear/experience one actually change anything they say they are going to change..  Things just go on as they always have and nothing changes.

I see it the same way right up the ladder to the white house.  We get the "change" speech from every candidate every time there is an election..  Why is that?

IF someone were to have actually changed something for the better during their tenure, would we still need someone to swoop in and change/fix/etc everything?  NO!  we would elect someone who would just keep things nice and perfect and leave it at that.  Instead we get sick and tired of the same old politics (lies) and lack of action.  Once voting time rolls around, we elect those who we are led to believe will "change" things for the better, and the cycle starts again..

So to tell me that we'll just fix the government by voting in those who *promise* to fix something doesn't hold water in my book.  We'll just get the same slow, disappointing, downwards spiral of politics that those of us who have seen the same results for years and years have come to expect..  I respect your optimism but I can't share it.  I need to see more movement for true governmental change before I'll buy that we have a chance in hell in actually overhauling the system like it needs to be.  Up until that point, I only believe that dissension will get people ignored at lower levels and jailed, hurt, blacklisted or killed at higher levels.

 
Svart said:
Case in point: Obama and Guantanamo..  Before election: "CLOSE IT!!"  After election: "WE NEED IT"..

I don't believe any politician.  
I hope you realize you are forcing me to half defend Obama...   I don't think he lied about closing Gitmo, he was just naive about the difficulty to actually accomplish that. If there was a lie, it was in presenting himself as having an informed opinion on the subject (and many others).  

Now we have him parading around the world like he's still on some campaign. The other world leaders have pretty much figured him out.
I see it the same way right up the ladder to the white house.  We get the "change" speech from every candidate every time there is an election..  Why is that?
Because that's who people vote for,, don't blame the politicians for doing what works. We need to blame uninformed voters. I wanted to believe Obama would be as moderate as he campaigned, while I didn't vote for him. He has since shown a different side. The good news is he can't do that twice... or maybe he can with some voters.  
So to tell me that we'll just fix the government by voting in those who *promise* to fix something doesn't hold water in my book.  We'll just get the same slow, disappointing, downwards spiral of politics that those of us who have seen the same results for years and years have come to expect..  I respect your optimism but I can't share it.  
Don't listen to their words, look at how they acted in the past. There are two main political parties with two generally different philosophies of governance. It is unfortunate that the relatively "conservative" party of the two lost their way in a spending orgy, with almost zero vetoes from the chief. But they got replaced by folks that make them look like pikers when it comes to spending.

I am optimistic that a return to a more conservative government will help, but the unfortunate reality is so much damage has been done to our economy it will take years to get back to zero.  The stock market IMO is falsely suggesting the near term future will be better (think W or square root, not V). Housing is still receiving huge stimulus and not finished falling. Once deflation subsides  and we remove all the stimulus, things will get much more difficult.

Unemployment hasn't topped out yet, and the small businesses that need to ramp up hiring are getting saddled with new obligations. Its going to be a difficult the next few years, but i remain optimistic we will come out the other side OK, ASSuming middle America wakes up and just says no.  No carbon tax, no expansion of healthcare entitlements, no more expansion of government into out lives. If we let government take over the entire economy, they will run it into the ground and we will become a failed power.

JR

PS: Anarchy is all that's left if we abandon working within the political process for change.  

EDIT- correction.. revolution would be working outside the current system to change it, anarchy is disrupting the system with no desire for order. /EDIT
 

Latest posts

Back
Top