do taxpayer's need a lobby too?

[Svart]

But it's my belief that it's exactly the political process that needs to be changed..  You can't change something you are forced to work within..

I imagine it as hugging a bear.  It's big, fuzzy, warm and cuddly.  Until it tries to eat your head.  Now how do you get out of it's hug/death grip once your are in it?

 

[living sounds]

I find this remarkable. You're talking about the expansion of government in the social department and completely ignore the fact that according to a recent US department of agriculture study 50 million people in the US had trouble putting food on their plates last year, more people are dying every year than in terrorist attacks or US wars because of their lack of health care, and also much larger sums wasted on useless and ultimately harmful military adventures like the war in Iraq than will be spent on all the (quite moderate) social changes the administration is trying to introduce.
I mean, how detached from reality can you be?
Here in Germany people pay higher taxes, we have full health care, a much more aged population, a lot more government interventionism and we still seem to manage to get through the recession without a lot of additional unimployment. And things are very far from perfect here. But the Chinese don't own a lot of our country, our streets are not packed with homeless people and government is working. Because we want it work. Some of the Skandinavian countries to even better.

I don't know where you get your information from, but introducing moderate measures like carbon trade may be the last chance to prevent catastrophic climate change, a reality the vast amount of scientists agree on.

You cannot carry on with this egocentric world view, its not sustainable and will lead to collapse sooner or later, as evidenced by the economic crisis. The tides are shifting on a global scale right now, and the future has more regulation and less predator capitalism in store. We're all in it together.

 

[sodderboy]

Enjoy it while you can, bro.  Much of Europe will be a Caliphate in 25 years!  Allah Akbar!  Too bad, really, because there are so many great pork products made there now.

And a report from a US government agency reporting that one sixth of the US economy had "problems putting food on their tables" needs to be investigated for bogus data.  If they had "problems putting food on their table", it was not poverty but because they were too fat to walk, they didn't want to mess their new nail job, or they were watching TV and texting all at the same time.  Such agencies are good for "one american baby dies every minute" and crap like that.
Carbon trade?  Don't forget, that in the world-wide carbon market, Germany is also one of the evil polluters.  Turn your lights off one hour early, you global polluter!  That is proving to be a total joke of the centuries, except for those profiting on it.  Need another bubble of worthless paper?  Carbon trade is a great replacement.  Even the global politicians trying to shove it are stalling.  The data just is not there for "man made global warming"  just like it was not there in the 70's for "man made global cooling".  There is sun-made solar system wide cooling and warming, but that does not play in to people's emotions.  Just wait, "man made global cooling" will make a come-back soon.
Healthcare?  In this country it is nothing more than further government take-over of the private sector, after government has hobbled it with legislative clubs.

Enjoy your socialist utopias while you still can, because you have equalized your individual worth and liberty away.
Mike

 

[Svart]

may be the last chance to prevent catastrophic climate change, a reality the vast amount of scientists agree on.

Not true.  Please be informed and read between the headlines.  AGW is not real.  Give it another year or two and you'll see..

You might want to read a global warming website that actually HAS data to back up it's claims.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/

 

[JohnRoberts]

Ignoring the misinformation, while I wouldn't try to tell somebody about their own country from the outside it appears that Germany is shifting to the right. Their universal healthcare that started out years ago as government assistance for those who couldn't pay, has grown like all government bureaucracies to displace the private sector that always operates more efficiently. If you thought your taxes were high before welcome to the new plan.

Back on topic. Svart, I feel your anger about our recent government but don't conflate the players with the system. The system as designed gives the last word and power to we the people. Of course we can lose that power if we don't exercise it regularly.

Before you advocate tearing up the current system I would invite you and all to read the "Federalist Papers", a series of essays written by the founders when arguing for ratification. We have the tools and power within the system to make this right. The internet if anything facillitates grass roots movements and expression of the will of the people.

The original founders were counting on newspapers and free speech to keep the federal government honest, we must be diligent that they don't co-opt all our sources of information. Some might argue that they already have most news organizations in their pocket, but I suspect that is an infatuation that will not only pass but turn ugly when the romance is over, and not a permanent affectation. Short of censoring the internet, bloggers will have a free voice to dissent. Even in countries like Iran they can't stop all dissent, while they sure are trying.

I remain optimistic about the future but concerned about the now...

JR

 

[living sounds]

Enjoy it while you can, bro.  Much of Europe will be a Caliphate in 25 years!  Allah Akbar!

Totally absurd. Where do you get your information, Sean Hannity?

And a report from a US government agency reporting that one sixth of the US economy had "problems putting food on their tables" needs to be investigated for bogus data.  If they had "problems putting food on their table", it was not poverty but because they were too fat to walk, they didn't want to mess their new nail job, or they were watching TV and texting all at the same time.  Such agencies are good for "one american baby dies every minute" and crap like that.

They're fat because they're poor. There's a well studied correlation between poverty, low education and the intake of cheap high energy low quality food. This should be pretty obvious. And thanks to the relentless promotion and use of fructose as sweetener the accumulation of fat is accelerated.

Carbon trade?  Don't forget, that in the world-wide carbon market, Germany is also one of the evil polluters. 

Yes, it is. We don't do enough, clearly. But consumption of energy, water etc. has stagnated here, and the proportion of renewable engery sources is growing quickly. Thanks to the incentives by the center-left government from a few years ago we've got a huge green manufacturing industry now.

Enjoy your socialist utopias while you still can, because you have equalized your individual worth and liberty away.
Mike

Have you even been to Europe, ever? To countries like Sweden, France, the Netherlands or Germany? People here usually value their liberties very highly. Social security and universal health care are a source of freedom for the people who cannot afford it. The freedom to live their life in dignity. Or to persue happyness, if you will.

I'm the first one to critizise a lot of things over here, I do it all the time. And there are a lot of things I prefer in the US, like for example the way freedom is speech is handled. But a lot of views of the American far right can only be called nuts. The founding fathers would agree, most of them were way more liberal in many of their views.

And as far is global warming is concerned, yes, there is a consensus it is man-made. Here's a good overview:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

 

[Svart]

It's not really about tearing up the system totally.  The basis to the system does work!  It's all of the stuff that is piled on top that muddy the waters to the point where we can no longer see that basis.

Just look at firearm control.  It's my belief/interpretation that the Second Amendment does not exclude ANY firearm.  The flip side of this is that we've allowed laws that limit a fairly hefty chunk of firearms while still *allowing* us to own token firearms so that we don't totally feel like our second amendment is dwindling away over time.

The government says that it's for our own good, that high-powered firearms are dangerous for us to own.

The problem is that most firearms related crimes are done with cheap, foreign made, small-caliber firearms.  Criminals can't afford expensive, high-powered firearms, or else they wouldn't be criminals..  While there are those few/far between criminal activities that get a majority of media coverage(going back to my thought that the government uses sensationalism from the media as a device to control mass mentality..) most are second hand weapons that have long since been lost in the system.  

Again it's the false mentality that control=safety.  That's always been a false ideal though and it carries over into many other parts of life.  It's kind of like a door lock.  Door locks only keep the honest people out.  Criminals will just kick the door down regardless.  Same with firearms.  Registration/control only keeps those honest people from owning firearms the government doesn't want you to own.  Criminals always find a way to get what they want.

So if you look beyond the BS and see that the majority of crimes are done with readily available small arms, why does the government control firearms that most criminals wouldn't be able to afford anyway?

Oh and why is the government allowed to retain the use of those firearms that the citizen is not allowed to have even though the threat from criminals is minimal?

Could it be that the government has fortified itself against the threat of forced overthrow?  Why does the Patriot Act allow the government to spy on it's own citizens without any ability of the citizen to control the actions of the government agency through any form of balances?

We are allowed to complain and protest within the confines of the "law".  Unfortunately most laws regarding protesting are fairly strict and tight.  Lots of people go to jail for doing nothing more than yelling and sitting down.  Why such strong arm tactics for peaceful demonstrations?

It's funny that we criticize Iran's government for strong arming it's citizens critical of it's system.  While we aren't as open with our military policy against our citizens, if we protested against our government in a truly serious manner, I would expect the same type of response.

 

[Svart]

And as far is global warming is concerned, yes, there is a consensus it is man-made. Here's a good overview:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

Uh, I've read both sides of the argument for years.  The problem is that the bodies of government that have deemed AGW as "real" have used mostly false and mistaken data for most of their decisions.

I've read the REAL data, not the reports from an agency who's sole positioning is to prove that AGW exists(not prove that it doesn't..).

This nullifies any trust in scientific method that I would have for a group accountable for large-scale governemental action.

Please, read about the IPCC and their hockey stick.  You'll soon see the holes in their theory that are big enough to put the earth in..  And that's just the start. 

Do I believe that lowering emissions is good?  OF COURSE.

Do I believe that man is the cause of the rise in temps in the late 90's? NO.

Do I believe that man is the cause of the lowering in global temps since 2002?  NO.

Do I believe that the Earth's weather and Sun's power combine to create changes in global patterns? YES.  And those patterns are showing a decrease in global temps over time.

 

[JohnRoberts]

It's not really about tearing up the system totally.  The basis to the system does work!  It's all of the stuff that is piled on top that muddy the waters to the point where we can no longer see that basis.

The system includes a facility to change the constitution by amendment, while the threshold for making such change is high to prevent reacting to short term popular fashion. The system is also self policing with the judicial empowered to strike down, unconstitutional legislation.

Just look at firearm control.  It's my belief/interpretation that the Second Amendment does not exclude ANY firearm.  The flip side of this is that we've allowed laws that limit a fairly hefty chunk of firearms while still *allowing* us to own token firearms so that we don't totally feel like our second amendment is dwindling away over time.

The government says that it's for our own good, that high-powered firearms are dangerous for us to own.

The problem is that most firearms related crimes are done with cheap, foreign made, small-caliber firearms.  Criminals can't afford expensive, high-powered firearms, or else they wouldn't be criminals..  While there are those few/far between criminal activities that get a majority of media coverage(going back to my thought that the government uses sensationalism from the media as a device to control mass mentality..) most are second hand weapons that have long since been lost in the system.  

Again it's the false mentality that control=safety.  That's always been a false ideal though and it carries over into many other parts of life.  It's kind of like a door lock.  Door locks only keep the honest people out.  Criminals will just kick the door down regardless.  Same with firearms.  Registration/control only keeps those honest people from owning firearms the government doesn't want you to own.  Criminals always find a way to get what they want.

There is are two dominant viewpoints about how to interpret the constitution. I think our founders intentionally made some of it vague to keep us arguing, Putting a fine edge on an already sharp knife.

I personally don't think citizens should be allowed to own thermonuclear devices.  There is surely a line somewhere, and the right to bear arms is as much about farmers being able to feed their family by hunting and regional governments being able to resist a powerful central government. Blowing shit up where there is a serious threat to public safety deserves some oversight.

If there ever was government attack on our personal liberty, it wouldn't be preserved by us having automatic weapons. We are too dependent on a civil infrastructure for food and heat, etc. Few of us could survive very long going to the land and roughing it. 

So if you look beyond the BS and see that the majority of crimes are done with readily available small arms, why does the government control firearms that most criminals wouldn't be able to afford anyway?

Oh and why is the government allowed to retain the use of those firearms that the citizen is not allowed to have even though the threat from criminals is minimal?

Could it be that the government has fortified itself against the threat of forced overthrow?  Why does the Patriot Act allow the government to spy on it's own citizens without any ability of the citizen to control the actions of the government agency through any form of balances?

The patriot act serves a narrow function and we must remain diligent to keep it temporary and not turned into concrete by those who would abuse the information to gain/hold power. That said I don't accept the argument that terrorism is a simple criminal act. How can a suicide bomber  profit from his/her crime?  There is something bigger going on, and we need to react appropriately. If we over react we promote their goals as much as not reacting.

We are allowed to complain and protest within the confines of the "law".  Unfortunately most laws regarding protesting are fairly strict and tight.  Lots of people go to jail for doing nothing more than yelling and sitting down.  Why such strong arm tactics for peaceful demonstrations?

It's funny that we criticize Iran's government for strong arming it's citizens critical of it's system.  While we aren't as open with our military policy against our citizens, if we protested against our government in a truly serious manner, I would expect the same type of response.

If you pay even passing attention to world events, and the SOTA in crowd control technology, it is not trivial to manage people intent on disrupting private commerce. It makes international headlines when even one protester dies in a western country, while there are too many to count all around the world who never make it home.

The visible military presence at most domestic demonstrations are national guard under regional (State Governor) control. I can't speak for the homeland security types and can't defend some of the excesses after Katrina in nawlins. The military by law is prevented from public police matters, contrary to all the hollywood movies. 

Don't over estimate the competence of government. Most abuses are out of ignorance, incompetence, and simple self-interest, so pretty easily discovered (like Jeffersons, fridge full of cash). The system is good, but I agree we are in need of some housecleaning, more like a vinegar douche.

JR

PS: The funny thing about global warming is those Freakonomics guys proposed how we could cool the earth several degrees for only a few hundred million dollars (mimic the cooling effect of a volcano spraying matter into upper atmosphere). What worries me, is that I have never seen the owners manual that states what the single proper temperature is for this planet that has varied warmer and colder as far as we can determine.. Also with any chaotic system, small changes in input state can result in wildly different terminal states.  I don't accept that we just happen right now to be at the only correct temperature for this world, or that we should overtly try to manage it. It is one of the worst characteristics of humans to try to manage everything. There are far more useful things to do with all the wealth the Goreistas are trying to get their fingers on... This sure looks like a blatant power play to control even more of the global economy, and divert resources to them so they can pursue even more, telling us how we should behave.

 

[living sounds]

Again it's the false mentality that control=safety.  That's always been a false ideal though and it carries over into many other parts of life.  It's kind of like a door lock.  Door locks only keep the honest people out.  Criminals will just kick the door down regardless.  Same with firearms.  Registration/control only keeps those honest people from owning firearms the government doesn't want you to own.  Criminals always find a way to get what they want.

Bad education, stress and poverty produce crime. Being denied opportunity. Growing up in precarious circumstances. Getting to understand not to obey the rules because you feel you're not included. Or the rules are unfair and/or unfairly applied.
There is a clear correlation between poverty and violent crimes, as well as the availibility of firearms and violent crimes. If controls aren't working, they are availible.
There is not a single state in the US with a homicide rate lower than Norway, Ireland or Germany. At average it's five times as high.

Understanding human nature, I don't see why anyone should be allowed to have deadly weapons at home. It clearly doesn't increase security.

 

[Svart]

Very good points John. I'm enjoying this conversation very much.

Here is an article that coincidentally agrees with your view of the climate system of the Earth:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/16/why-ncars-meehl-paper-on-highlow-temperature-records-is-bunk/

It clearly shows that average temps(as well as peak temps, both high and low) can not only vary greatly but can also be used in politics simply by changing the window of time with which you observe.

This article shows that while temps in the later parts of the 90's look much higher than average than any decade since the 50's, if we simply open the window up to start at least back in the early parts of the century, we can see an oscillatory action with earlier decades actually being hotter than we are now.

But, there is also the problem with urbanization AND the location of "official" temp sensors the NWC, NASA and other government agencies use.  Most sensors have been surrounded by urbanization(asphalt, buildings, airports, etc) that generally change the average air temp around these sensors.  When was the last time you stood on dark asphalt and felt cooler than if you stood on grass in the same general area?  Most of these government agencies do NOT keep up with the conditions around their sensors and rarely do maintenance and/or calibration to ensure that they are working optimally.  These agencies DO continue to use this data without any kind of offset for false or uncalibrated data.  Their official stance is that everything is OK and nothing needs to be done to ensure the validity of their data however independent reports show that this false data is moving the average temps upwards even though a true measure of the temperatures in these areas has shown to be steady or fall in the last half of this decade.

It's all in how deep you want to look.  Most of these agencies get very little money to do their due diligence to keep their data relevant and true to actual changes in the climate and most are OK with simply continuing to report false data because it would take way too much time and money to fix everything that needs to be fixed.

That and what government agency wants to come out and report that they've been giving false data for decades?  That would be political suicide for those agencies and any politician who uses them for gains, both political and personal..

 

[Svart]

Again it's the false mentality that control=safety.  That's always been a false ideal though and it carries over into many other parts of life.  It's kind of like a door lock.  Door locks only keep the honest people out.  Criminals will just kick the door down regardless.  Same with firearms.  Registration/control only keeps those honest people from owning firearms the government doesn't want you to own.  Criminals always find a way to get what they want.

Bad education, stress and poverty produce crime. Being denied opportunity. Growing up in precarious circumstances. Getting to understand not to obey the rules because you feel you're not included. Or the rules are unfair and/or unfairly applied.
There is a clear correlation between poverty and violent crimes, as well as the availibility of firearms and violent crimes. If controls aren't working, they are availible.
There is not a single state in the US with a homicide rate lower than Norway, Ireland or Germany. At average it's five times as high.

Understanding human nature, I don't see why anyone should be allowed to have deadly weapons at home. It clearly doesn't increase security.

I completely agree on the education aspect of this.  I do not agree about the firearms aspect.

I'm 100% with you about needing better education for all.  I may be libertarian but I do make concessions when it comes to paying large taxes to ensure that everyone gets a good education.  I was able to go through school on grants from the state and the federal government.  I came from a family who was barely above poverty.  The system works, IF YOU USE IT.

As I was growing up, I went through the public school system in an area known for it's gang activity and crime.  I went to school with a lot of kids who are now dead from this activity.  A majority of them didn't come to school to learn, they came to sell drugs or because the court/penal system mandated that they did.  Did they care about getting an education? Nope.  Did their parent(s) care? Nope.

The system is there but unfortunately, schools are boring.  Schools can't compete with music/video/peer pressure when it comes to getting a young person's attention.  Teachers are underpaid and unwilling to go the extra mile to excite kids into sticking with learning.

Lack of education = lack of a job/poor paying job = feelings of inadequacy and/or feeling the system failed them = lack of caring about the system = their children hearing/learning from mommy/daddy that the system doesn't support them for ______ reason = kid doesn't care about education = lack of job/poor paying job = the cycle continues forever.

Our system is based around personal freedoms, to a point.  You have the freedom to fuck your life up and blame the *system* for your problems but you also have the freedom to go back to school and do something about it too.  The problem is that most people that feel the system has failed also distrust it so much that the distrust goes right to their core and they do nothing about it.

The other problem is that violence usually starts from a few different places:

Greed

Power

Greed starts with feeling like you didn't get something that you deserve.  The power part starts when someone feels inadequate and lacks the coping skills to improve themselves.  Add them together and you have the basis for most violent crimes.

Why would someone shoot someone else over shoes or a car or some other material object?  It starts with greed but it's really because inside they are committing an act that makes them feel powerful.  Power that they don't have through a normal self-image.

Our government gives a certain amount of freedom to follow your own path while other governments do not.  Governments in the countries you listed are much more strict in their education rules than we are.

They also have a MUCH tighter feeling of social unity than we do here in the states.  It's that social unity that keeps the kids in school instead of being led astray by outside influences.  It's proven that a tight family produces children that end up being much more successful adults.

So our problem is not firearms, it's not music, it's not video games, it's the parents and their lack of control on their children.  It's the lack of trust between religions/races/etc.  It's all the stuff that the government hasn't been able to dictate(yet) like morals.

Fix the morals, fix the trust, fix the racism/sexism/religion-ism and we'll be a LOT better off and people won't feel the primal need to shoot each other up in the streets because they will not have even gotten that far.  They would be solid individuals that aren't concerned with being "disrespected" or other nonsense, because not only will everyone be inherently respected, they would have such a good self-image that they know that nothing like that really matters.

Personally, if someone were to come up to me and call me a name or call my mother a whore or something like that, I know it's not true and it doesn't bother me one bit.  If you were to do that in SW Atlanta, you'd be dead in the time it takes to pull out a gun.

 

[sodderboy]

wiki?  heh-heh sounds! 
From wiki:
"Global cooling was a conjecture during the 1970s of imminent cooling of the Earth's surface and atmosphere along with a posited commencement of glaciation. This hypothesis never had significant scientific support, but gained temporary popular attention due to a combination of press reports that did not accurately reflect the scientific understanding of ice age cycles, and a slight downward trend of temperatures from the 1940s to the early 1970s. General scientific opinion is that the Earth has not durably cooled, but undergone global warming throughout the 20th century."

Thats great for wiki to say that now, but in the 70's it WAS all "in 10 years the oceans will be dead" "in 10 years our streams will be toxic" "we have to change blah blah or there will be no more food".  This is the egotism of man, and of specific media-whoring Chicken Littles, to impose belief systems on others.  The same "scientist" mopes pushing that in the 70's are now pushing mmgw.  They were wrong then, they are wrong now.  Scientists do not understand the ice age cycles, sea currents, air streams.  They are learning new things quarterly that do not fit their ever-changing "models".  They will be pushing cooling in about 7 years, and still will not be able to predict tomorrow's weather. 

I do not want a european style bennies, taxation, or government in my country, and that is kinda what the thread is about.  Bitte sehr, if you like it.  Believe in what you want, I am glad you like it, but you cannot force it upon me. My President still cannot go against the will of the majority of the people, and he knows it. That is the most fundamental founding principle of the USA- we are endowed unalienable rights from a creator, and not from a global political treaty or a bought and paid for Congress.  The Constitution, written by Europeans, is what sets us apart from Europe and her "Old World" oppression.
Mike

 

[eskimo]

we are endowed unalienable rights from a creator

Heck yes!

 

[sodderboy]

Ha-ha.  I see your Hercules and raise you the Franklin

Or more befitting a hand with sanctimonious preachy socialist europeans, I raise you a Marshall

Mike

 

[eskimo]

Thor wasn't pleased at all with being called hercules. Now he will strike you down unless you sacrifice a pile of transformers. Send them to me and I will pass them on to him, free of charge.

 

[living sounds]

Our government gives a certain amount of freedom to follow your own path while other governments do not.  Governments in the countries you listed are much more strict in their education rules than we are.

They also have a MUCH tighter feeling of social unity than we do here in the states.  It's that social unity that keeps the kids in school instead of being led astray by outside influences.  It's proven that a tight family produces children that end up being much more successful adults.

There's no better social unity here. There's a rift between the more conservative immigrants and the more conservative natives. The educational system in Germany (not in the other countries) is discriminatory in pretty ugly ways. It's beginning to change, but the class of people who profited from that don't like it and fight back pretty viciously. There's a much bigger divide between classes here. One of the things I like about the United States is the strong believe of general equality of every individual. There are no real classes. Which, as a byproduct, has led to the serious downside of anti-intellectualism. Basically you have the freedom to believe whatever cobbled up bullshit you like, and your opinion matters just as much as anyone elses, even if you lack any understanding of the  matter. I think government plays a vital role in education and has to force people to get children to receive it. But this is not what causes the violent crimes.

Dysfunctional familes are widespread in Europe as in the United States, the difference is that the lower classes are not left to fend for themselves over here. It's not all as good as I would like it, but in general the government makes sure that people are fed, clothed and healthy. As a consequence, we get a lot less crime. There's not need for gated communities. There are no no-go areas. Nobody has to resort to sell drugs to put food on the table. Higher taxes are a good price to pay for this. And for general infrastructure, by the way. Because who really needs millionaires and billionaires? I think it was your former president Truman who said that noone needs more than 100000 bucks (back then) a year. I think he was right.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Is Thor sore?

=====
I agree more than I disagree... but

Diversity is fine and we are all Americans first. At least the legal citizens here, while many of the illegals live the american ideal if self improvement and hard work. I don't even care for all the hyphen-Americans, but they usually integrate into the mainstream by the second generation.

I don't see anti intellectualism per se, but parents seem to have less motivation to give their children a better life like earlier generations. The modern crew of parents seems to be more about "me" and less about "we". This extends to more than just focus on education, but without the parents supporting the teachers, the children don't respect the value of education. Education is as much about the students attitude as the teachers ability.

While we don't have the fully fleshed out support structure that Europe does for indigent, we do have some limited support systems. Our experience has been that such programs must be careful to not incentivize living on the dole. As it is we have notable cases of unmarried young women with way too many children, obviously on purpose to attract attention and support.

Regarding  how much money should executive earn, they should be allowed to earn as much as they create value for their boss or shareholders. This worth should be determined by free market forces, not some government czar. If A-Rod or Lebron can attract enough fans to earn many millions for their bosses, they deserve a share. I am very much opposed the the government appointing themselves pay masters for private industry. We don't need private industry to be infected with the same disease government workers have. 

The only concession I would make to the pay angst, is perhaps to make public corporation top executive pay more linked to shareholder votes at annual meetings. it is interesting to note that there were already attempts to limit pay and it ended up shifting compensation to bonuses, stock awards and options, which quickly became perverted with option back dating issues and other nonsense. I am inclined to agree after the first several million, wealth is more about keeping score than meeting human needs, but the pursuit of wealth is the engine that drives our economy to record growth for a long time.

We need to be careful we don't screw the pooch and lose what made us great (good?). I know it sounds arrogant to say we are great, but the US is remarkable for what we have accomplished in a few centuries. Our story isn't over, unless we buy into this over reliance on government for everything. Government is like in-laws....better the less you see them.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

We are allowed to complain and protest within the confines of the "law".  Unfortunately most laws regarding protesting are fairly strict and tight.  Lots of people go to jail for doing nothing more than yelling and sitting down.  Why such strong arm tactics for peaceful demonstrations?

It's funny that we criticize Iran's government for strong arming it's citizens critical of it's system.  While we aren't as open with our military policy against our citizens, if we protested against our government in a truly serious manner, I would expect the same type of response.

Just as a small update on this one point... Iran just sentenced five protesters to DEATH... 

I see a world of difference there.

JR

 

[Svart]

not that we've had protests get as violent as they did but I'm sure if we did, we'd have people sentenced to death too.  We'd just call it something different like aggravated mayhem, enticing a riot, TREASON etc.  I'm sure they'd find a way to pin any suspicious deaths on the "ringleaders" and prosecute for murder.

Other governments are just more open to using the justice system to deter their citizens than we are.

Other than that I suppose a lot is lost in translation plus our media tends to *leave out* details in their propaganda too.  Our headlines read "Protesters sentenced to death" when really the Iranian government sentenced some looters who killed a shop owner to steal stuff.  Remember the Rodney King riots?  Why did we not call them protests?  They were protesting the thought of the police force being racist and using excessive force.  So why did we not call them protesters?  Some of them killed people and were sentenced to death/life.. (for the record, I agree that the police force was/is racist to a degree but I saw the WHOLE video of rodney king.. There were a lot of parts that were edited out to make it seem worse than it really was..)

BUT..  I don't know the real truth about Iran, neither does most of the world.  In times like these I expect the media to put a negative spin on a nation known for it's injustices regardless of actual guilt this time..

Don't take that as me condoning Iran's policies but I would rather give them a fair shake than believe our media.  That's how bad I think the media is..