Ebike battery charging

[dmp]

As I said previously , the power pack is just that ,the actual cell balance is done by charge management IC's inside the battery itself .

The bike has a control circuit, the charger just plugs in with a +/- 5.5mm plug and supplies charge current.

I tell you what Mat , just to see the ferocity of the burn

When I wrote about common sense, it was to NOT do stuff like this

My guess is adding diodes or dropping the input voltage wont make any difference

There's plenty of info saying stopping the charge at 80% prolongs battery life significantly.
This is an example of a smart charger - the dial controls the final voltage
https://lunacycle.com/luna-charger-36v-advanced-210w-ebike-charger/Maybe I'll break open my charger to find the trimmer then re-house it

 

[sodderboy]

dmp, search the mines where and how the rare earth minerals and lithium are removed from the earth for "renewable energy" products, from solar panels to evehicles, then throw in the coal burned making the stuff in China by slaves of the State. Total rubbish!
Renewable rapes gaya way more than petroleum extraction, at least how it is done in the states.
Comparing an ebike to a rav4 is an easy sell, well, except when it is raining (due to "climate change"*). Compare an ebike to a vespa or a honda 175 and you will get much different numbers. But rest easy in your righteousness. "There are lies, damn lies, and sta. . . ."
My 2016 crv gets over 28 mpg, maybe you should upgrade.
Mike
* and the weather is more than to-tally hyped these days, on NPR and elsewhere. Yesterdays forecast on the radio (NY "conservative" talk station): "No sign of any extreme weather in the next few days" Thank you! Complete brainwashing everywhere.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Not to veer, but for best life/reliability with lead acid batteries they want to be kept fully charged. Lead acid batteries self discharge 1-2% a day and create sulfation products that damage the battery plates. I discovered this the hard way since I only drive my car once a week for a 15 mile round trip shopping excursion. The short trip(s) out and back were not enough to keep my battery from deteriorating. I now connect a trickle charger 24x7 to keep my battery happy.

It appears LION or modern battery technologies have different needs.

JR

 

[cyrano]

I've got some lead acid batteries that are nearly 20 years old that still hold charge and can supply some current. About half of what a new one can do. But as backup it's OK.

However, I doubt the next project will use lead acid tech... ;-)

 

[JohnRoberts]

I have a smart charger (noco genius) that can rehabilitate old lead acid batteries if they aren't too far gone. It can take a couple days to rehab an old battery but I have done a few over recent years.

JR

 

[sodderboy]

I'm not against "renewable/alternative energy", just absolutely when it is subsidized on both axis of the graph, and when it is absolutely non-scientifically pushed. I've had a solar tent fan for almost 30 years now. The 12V panel was made for trickle-charging cars that sit unused for lengths of time. As soon as the sun starts heating the tent, the fan does it's job. . . the tent smells better too.
When I study off the grid folks, I see people using early 1900's technology liquid batteries in 10-ish gal containers that might not store a huge punch, but last way longer than the rapacious modern solids.
Not for use on a 10th Ave skateboard or an ebike.
Mike

 

[Tubetec]

I found a small solar battery charge panel , it connects directly to a 12v lead acid , even though the current is tiny its enough to keep the mower battery in good condition right through the winter months . One of these makes good sense to keep a car battery topped up when not in use , it plugs into the lighter socket and the panel can sit in the back window .

 

[Gold]

Veer. Making and disposing of batteries is messy. It’s hard to parse total impact. I think hydrogen fuel cell is the way to go for vehicles. From what I can tell it’s relatively clean to extract and of course very clean to burn. It takes about 5:00 to fill the tank of the Honda and Toyota car models.

 

[scott2000]

I think hydrogen fuel cell is the way to go for vehicles

... to convince the people in charge of infrastructure

 

[JohnRoberts]

Veer. Making and disposing of batteries is messy. It’s hard to parse total impact. I think hydrogen fuel cell is the way to go for vehicles. From what I can tell it’s relatively clean to extract and of course very clean to burn. It takes about 5:00 to fill the tank of the Honda and Toyota car models.

I recall back when my older brother was in HS, he did a science fair project that was a working hydrogen fuel cell... This was in the early 60s. Decades later when he was working at Pratt and Whitney he messed with hydrogen powered turbines, and shared some of the problems... #1 hydrogen likes to leak, #2 if it catches fire you can't see it burning in air. (My brother said they would use a straw broom to search for burning leaks... they could see the broom catch fire), #3 hydrogen makes some metals brittle so robust fuel tanks are not trivial.

There is brown hydrogen and green hydrogen... based on how it is made. Hydrogen technology has been around for more than half a century and still not ready for prime time...

The Hindenburg still reminds us of the danger of hydrogen filled zeppelins.

JR

PS: I still think the play is conductive (or inductive) roadways so the EVs don't need a heavy battery at all... This technology still needs work.

 

[Gold]

There is brown hydrogen and green hydrogen... based on how it is made. Hydrogen technology has been around for more than half a century and still not ready for prime time..

You can lease a Honda or Toyota in SoCal. There are filling stations in So Cal. The cars are DOT approved. The technology works.

 

[JohnRoberts]

You can lease a Honda or Toyota in SoCal. There are filling stations in So Cal. The cars are DOT approved. The technology works.

A testament to what a heavy government thumb on the scale can accomplish.

I don't question if it functions, just wether it is cost effective and practical for widespread use.

I don't even see public EV charging stations here in nowhere MS, not holding my breath for a hydrogen fuel stations to show up here.

NG vehicles were the hot new thing for a while, more popular worldwide.

JR

PS: Hydrogen is good on paper... the output from the combustion cycle is water, hard to fault that (ignoring that water vapor is a green house gas. )

 

[Disco Volante]

The bike has a control circuit, the charger just plugs in with a +/- 5.5mm plug and supplies charge current.


When I wrote about common sense, it was to NOT do stuff like this


There's plenty of info saying stopping the charge at 80% prolongs battery life significantly.
This is an example of a smart charger - the dial controls the final voltage
https://lunacycle.com/luna-charger-36v-advanced-210w-ebike-charger/Maybe I'll break open my charger to find the trimmer then re-house it

Seeing as the charge is apparently controlled inside the battery (embedded BMS chips are common these days and rather badly documented) to get a proper cell balancing, I see two scenarios from lowering the input voltage: either the BMS decides to not charge (undervoltage shutoff) or you get charge until the voltage is reached (what you wanted?).
I'd give the diode approach a go. Your cells are protected by the BMS inside.

The "correct" way would be to reprogram the BMS, which is a whole other ballgame, involving mostly some assembler code via a I2C-bus. Some russian guy did a whole lot of work reprogramming laptop batteries (which have a somewhat more elaborate control system). I forgot where I found it...
Another way out would be sort of a RC-style hack on your battery, doing away with the inbuilt BMS, connecting all the points between the cells to a smart charger that will let you control every aspect of charging and balancing.
It would be very interesting to see what that would mean in terms of battery lifespan..

Happy tinkering!
Viggo

 

[Matador]

Renewable rapes gaya way more than petroleum extraction, at least how it is done in the states.

https://www.transportenvironment.or...021_02_Battery_raw_materials_report_final.pdf

Here, we compare the lifecycle energy consumption of a battery electric vehicle powered by
renewables and a fossil-fuelled car. This includes: energy from the production of the vehicle
(including the battery), direct energy from the use phase (i.e. fuel burned in the ICE), indirect energy
from the use phase (i.e. electricity to charge the BEV and upstream energy needed to extract, refine
and transport the petrol or diesel fuel), and finally we have also included the lifecycle energy
consumption to produce the required solar PV and wind turbines to generate the electricity the BEV
then uses. The analysis shows that over its lifetime the BEV will require 58% less energy than a
petrol car : 0.37 kWh/km vs. 0.87 kWh/km (or 54% less than a diesel).
...
The last cost component analysis is a comparison from a capital investment point of view, taken from
a report from BNP Paribas from 2019 . The report investigates how much useful energy at the wheels
80 do we get for a given capital outlay on oil and renewables by introducing the concept of the Energy
Return on Capital Invested (EROCI). The analysis indicates that for the same capital outlay in 2019,
new wind and solar-energy projects together with BEVs will produce six to seven times more useful
energy at the wheels (or transport work) than will oil for gasoline-powered cars (at $60/barrel).
According to the report, the long-term break-even oil price for ICEs to remain competitive as a source
of mobility is between $10 and $20 per barrel where the averaged in 2019 was $64 per barrel and $41
81 in 2020 82.

I've never quite understood the "your way is only less terrible than my way, so there's no need to change my way" argument.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I've never quite understood the "your way is only less terrible than my way, so there's no need to change my way" argument.

Don't bother... How about your way harms more (poor) people than our way. We need the wealth from cost effective fossil fuels to adapt to climate change.

Cancelling the fossil fuel energy industry without a practical effective "green" replacement in place is not very wise.
===
The "bbb" skinny version of BBB includes another round of $7500 tax credits for buying EVs. Still not going there.

JR

 

[Matador]

How about your way harms more (poor) people than our way.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Taken at face value, how does reducing the total energy expenditure of a vehicle by 58% harm poor people? Note that the figure in the paper is the total energy expenditure of the vehicle, including manufacturing, as well as the cost of the fuels to drive it (solar panels, wind turbines, etc), and extraction of the resources to both manufacture as well as maintain the vehicle.

We need the wealth from cost effective fossil fuels to adapt to climate change.

We need the buzz from cheap alcohol to adapt to liver cirrhosis?

 

[JohnRoberts]

"The Fossil Future" by Alex Epstein, "Unsettled" by Steven Koonin, and "False Alarm" by Bjorn Lomborg. The Koonin Book is jam packed with data, mostly UN and US Government data that he uses to disprove unfounded conclusions. Epstein calls himself a philosopher and perhaps well equipped to argue ideology. Lomborg is just a sensible voice amid all the craziness.
==
How many poor people are helped by $4+ a gallon gasoline? How many poor people are helped by a $7,500 tax credit to buy a new EV?

It is going to get worse before it gets better as we see the failures of woke energy policy to keep the lights on (don't charge your EV during the heat wave in lala land).

EVs were invented over a century ago. If it was a good idea, the government wouldn't need their fat thumb on the scale. They would already be in use everywhere. Not just on golf courses.

Of course opinions vary.

JR

 

[cyrano]

Whatever drives the car is not really the point. The pollution is still there. Car tires and brake pads are the biggest contributors to pollution.

Hec, you don't even need cars to pollute. Asphalt roads breathe hydrocarbons. What amazed me was that it's even going on in winter...

What we need to control is the artificial need to travel and transport without any valid reason.

 

[Matador]

If it was a good idea, the government wouldn't need their fat thumb on the scale.

I totally agree.

https://www.imf.org/-/media/Files/Publications/WP/2021/English/wpiea2021236-print-pdf.ashx

* Underpricing of fossil fuels is still pervasive across countries and is often substantial, especially for coal.
* At the global level, total (explicit plus implicit) fossil fuel subsidies are $5.9 trillion in 2020, or 6.8 percent of GDP.
* Underpricing for local air pollution and climate damages are the two biggest sources of subsidies, accounting for 42 and 29 percent of the global total in 2020, respectively.
* The power generation sector is the largest recipient of subsidies, receiving 61 and 33 percent of coal and natural gas subsidies, respectively.

 

[scott2000]

What we need to control is the artificial need to travel and transport without any valid reason

As much as I'd like to use this sometimes.....
Guessing you're single? lol