Eckmiller HS/TS10 Questions

[respo2000]

Hello everybody,
i would like to ask some questions about the Eckmiller HS10 and TS10 regarding their maximum input level and their usual usage. i currently have some units here and would like to know how to use them properly.
I know these units are designed to be connected in series, or with an appropriate I/O-transformer, if used as single units.
So here my questions:

1. What is the maximum input level of these units? The datasheet says something like 500mV Belastbarkeit at the input.
2. How were these units normally used (regarding the low input level (approx. -4dBu). I always thought that the input level of gear like that would be something like +4dBu?
3. Is anyone here around, who is using these units regularly and could give some tips how to use them?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge about these units!

Best regards,

Sebastian

 

[abbey road d enfer]

heck this thread
http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=24697.0
It seems silentarts had relevant info, but the links are 404 now.
Being passive units, it's difficult to define a maximum operating level.

 

[Conviction]

TS10

 

[Conviction]

HS10

 

[Michael Tibes]

The maximum level will be determined by core saturation in the transformer or filter coils. Why not just try it? These units contain so much metal, I can hardly imagine it being saturated with normal line levels.

Michael

 

[[silent:arts]]

It does saturate with "normal" line levels - in a very cool sounding way  8)

 

[Conviction]

Hm. I've seen a couple of old consoles here in Sweden where these sits in the mixbus.

- HS10/TS10 connected in series
- Passive EQ (60Hz/10K, +/- 6dB)
- Line transformer, 1:1
- Makeup amp (V72 or one of the many equivalents)

I've always taken for granted the operating level was +4dBu.

I use a stereo set of HS10/TS10 in my home setup. Output from DAW is set to +4dBu, makeup amp(s) to approximately 18dB.

 

[Michael Tibes]

It does saturate with "normal" line levels - in a very cool sounding way  8)

So do you also like the filter sound? I feel like the hicut sounds rather 'phasy' - did you feel the same or is it just my unit?

Michael

 

[respo2000]

Thank you for your answers! I will try it in a mixbus as suggested.
It is awesome to have people like you sharing their knowledge! Thanks again!

Best regards,

Sebastian

 

[dolo72]

I use a Ts10 in front of a v672 which is followed by a W86 - I just use the gain on the 672 to make up for the losses. It sounds great with the Ts10 cut and the 60hz boost working together.
  I have read somewhere that you can change the slope to something less aggressive than the 24db on the Ts10 by using some of the other connection pins - this would be very useful - Has anyone tried it ?

 

[Michael Tibes]

Those pins have always been a mystery to me, if there is any more information available it would be great 

Michael

 

[respo2000]

Hey dolo72,
i think that the link to the thread posted by abbey road d enfer as reply (see above),  and in that thread the second last post, is what you are looking for.
Just change some pins on the input or output, depending on HS or TS, to skip the LC-sections ( to change the order of the Filter) of the HS/TS10, and you get another slope steepness. Should be easy... i will try that out too, and give you my impressions when i tried it.

Best regards,

Sebastian

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Hey dolo72,
i think that the link posted by abbey road d enfer as reply (see above), second last post, is what you are looking for. 

Not me! 

Just change some pins on the input or output, depending on HS or TS, to skip the LC-sections ( to change the order of the Filter) of the HS/TS10, and you get another slope steepness. Should be easy... i will try that out too, and give you my impressions when i tried it.

Best regards,

Sebastian

The schemos in the documents are very clear; each filter is constituted of two sections cascaded; the "mysterious" pins allow tapping signal from the 1st section, at 12 dB/octave.
8-3: Full-range signal
8-4: 12dB/octave
8-7: 24 dB/oct
Correct response relies on source and load impedances=200r
If the load Z is higher (which is often the case), the response will be underdamped, i.e. there is a slight hump before the roll-off.

 

[Michael Tibes]

Correct response relies on source and load impedances=200r
If the load Z is higher (which is often the case), the response will be underdamped, i.e. there is a slight hump before the roll-off.

Just to understand correctly: does it need a 200R source or is it ok if it is smaller than 200R? I guess most source impedances are smaller, aren't they?

Michael

 

[leadbreath]

Love these units sound VERY good!  Just hook them up and make up gain with your choice, I've used everything from V72's to crappy IC gain stage and could not make them sound bad!!

 

[[silent:arts]]

Love these units sound VERY good!  Just hook them up and make up gain with your choice, I've used everything from V72's to crappy IC gain stage and could not make them sound bad!!

Why do you use a gain stage with HS10 and TS10 filters?
These filters don't have any insertion loss.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Love these units sound VERY good!  Just hook them up and make up gain with your choice, I've used everything from V72's to crappy IC gain stage and could not make them sound bad!!

Why do you use a gain stage with HS10 and TS10 filters?
These filters don't have any insertion loss.

But they do! They are intended to work in a 200 ohms matching environment, where there is 6dB loss at the input from the 200r source seeing a 200r reflected load.
In a "modern" (bridging) environment, there is almost no loss, but the response is not correct.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Just to understand correctly: does it need a 200R source

If you want the response to be the perfect Butterworth (maximally-flat) that they are designed for, yes, it needs to be 200 at the input, 200 at the output. [/quote] or is it ok if it is smaller than 200R?
[/quote] How much ok is ok? 
If teh source Z is <200, or the load Z is >200, there will be a hump. The more unmatched the impedance, the higher the hump. If put directly in a bridging environment (Zsource<<200 AND Zload>>200), the hump will be noticeable.

 

[[silent:arts]]

For sure Abbey is right.

For me I just don't see a point using them "correct" without the artifacts.
If clean filters are needed I would use digital stuff.
The HS10 and TS10 are meant to be abused ;-)

However, I did some measurement for you guys.
Generator-Level is 0dBu, TS10 is set to 80Hz, HS to 8kHz.
red is Zout = 200R / Zin = 200R
green is Zout = 15R / Zin = 200R
blue is Zout = 15R / Zin = 100k

 

[Michael Tibes]

Thank you Volker, that looks very interesting. I'll try mine with the proper impedances to see how they really sound ;-)
I assumed that they were built to fit the V72/74/76 signal path, but obviously they need different source and load impedances. This might explain the 'phasey' sound I was wondering about. They should work well with a V74 as makeup amp, this might be an interesting chain 

Michael