Ensemble burnt capacitor

[Rybow]

A few months ago I posted on here that my ensemble had some difficulties connecting to my computer, but now I have a much more serious issue. Any advice or help you guys can give me would be amazing!

My imac and ensemble are both plugged into a power bar/surge protector. I was working on the computer, the ensemble was on stand by mode, and the power button was illuminated. After a couple of hours, I went to turn on the ensemble in order to start some music work. The power button was no longer illuminated, and there was a faint scent of burning electronics in the air. Popped of the top to discover a burnt out capacitor on the main board. This cap is located next to the socket where the power supply connects. My big concern is that the damage goes much deeper than just this capacitor. I was wondering what else I can do on my end. I could try to replace the cap, but I will admit that I have never worked with SMD components. The tough part will be trying to determine the component values. I have measured the power supply voltage at 24VDC.

I emailed Apogee a few days ago about this, and they referred me to Protel here in NZ for repair. However, I have learned that Protel doesn't really do repair work. They assess equipment, and usually end up sending it to Apogee for repair if it requires something more than just a power supply replacement or factory reset. My ensemble is not under warranty, so I have to foot this bill. The issue there is shipping will be an absolute killer to and from California. Total cost works out to around $700 most of which is shipping. I am taking it in to Protel tomorrow to see what can be done, and they will take over consulting Apogee from that point.

I have attached a picture showing the burnt cap. You will also notice the main board is dusty. I should really get on that one. I have also put a link to a much bigger more high res picture if need be.

Any advice is much appreciated!

http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac217/insomniaclown/Ensemblecapacitor.jpg

 

[bruce0]

As far as component value for cap, I have an ensemble that is out of warrantee.  I will pull the lid and find the value on that cap for you if you want.  But give me an overview pic to let me know where it is located  (though the power cord looks like a good locator).

Also, there are i think 2 apogee ensembles (one runs on line power the other has an option to run on battery or something), mine is the earlier  model that worked on line voltage (Mine says it runs on 120/240 isn (cant really see it without unracking it). 

So you would need to make sure we had the same model, (maybe there is an ID on the circuit board).

...

As far as SMD stuff... Hot air rework station helps..

But if you have a soldering iron and 3 hands and tweezers, or a de-soldering gun... that might work

Safe would be using "Chip Quick" a low temp solder that you melt onto the part contacts, it blends with the existing solder, and lowers the melting point to the point where you can remove it while it is warm.  (you have to clean it off before Resoldering ... but it is easy on the board... which matters on a $1500 box...  Just look up Chip Quick online and you will read about it)

Anyway.. offer is there. If you want to just replace the cap and have a go at it, I will find the value for you if you have the same model.

b

BTW.. that looks like an SMD Tant Cap.
b

 

[CJ]

sometimes you get a bad run of tant caps, or the polarity was reversed, or a real long shot, the cap got labeled wrong,

probably no other circuit problems, you can solder the leads of a lytic to the smd pads if you no longer like a tant in that place, that looks like a 10uf/25v, just a guess,

check the voltage across those pads before installing a new cap,

 

[culteousness1]

..or the polarity was reversed..

Looks like that to me. The silkscreen for the tants has a little edge to indicate the positive capacitor lead.
So the side of the cap with the marking goes to the edge.

Although the cap is looking like a piece of charcoal, I can't see the marking where it should be.
As CJ recommends, best is to check voltages after desoldering.

SMT is nothing to worry about. Just get some proper desoldering wick.

Best,
Carsten

 

[Rybow]

As far as component value for cap, I have an ensemble that is out of warrantee.  I will pull the lid and find the value on that cap for you if you want.  But give me an overview pic to let me know where it is located  (though the power cord looks like a good locator).

Also, there are i think 2 apogee ensembles (one runs on line power the other has an option to run on battery or something), mine is the earlier  model that worked on line voltage (Mine says it runs on 120/240 isn (cant really see it without unracking it). 

So you would need to make sure we had the same model, (maybe there is an ID on the circuit board).

...

As far as SMD stuff... Hot air rework station helps..

But if you have a soldering iron and 3 hands and tweezers, or a de-soldering gun... that might work

Safe would be using "Chip Quick" a low temp solder that you melt onto the part contacts, it blends with the existing solder, and lowers the melting point to the point where you can remove it while it is warm.  (you have to clean it off before Resoldering ... but it is easy on the board... which matters on a $1500 box...  Just look up Chip Quick online and you will read about it)

Anyway.. offer is there. If you want to just replace the cap and have a go at it, I will find the value for you if you have the same model.

b

BTW.. that looks like an SMD Tant Cap.
b

Hey Bruce. Thanks for all that! My Ensemble runs on line power, so I think we have the same version. If you could look at the value for me that would be awesome! The designation is C72 on the circuit board. I will try to get an overview pic up as soon as I can.
I'll look into chip quick as well. Don't want to take too many chances.

sometimes you get a bad run of tant caps, or the polarity was reversed, or a real long shot, the cap got labeled wrong,

probably no other circuit problems, you can solder the leads of a lytic to the smd pads if you no longer like a tant in that place, that looks like a 10uf/25v, just a guess,

check the voltage across those pads before installing a new cap,

Thanks CJ! That's very encouraging. Soldering on a lytic would probably be easier for me. I'll definitely check the voltage before I put a new cap in.

Looks like that to me. The silkscreen for the tants has a little edge to indicate the positive capacitor lead.
So the side of the cap with the marking goes to the edge.

Although the cap is looking like a piece of charcoal, I can't see the marking where it should be.
As CJ recommends, best is to check voltages after desoldering.

SMT is nothing to worry about. Just get some proper desoldering wick.

Best,
Carsten

Thanks Carsten! I just took a closer look at it, and I am more confident that I can get in there and get the job done. I still think I'll be more comfortable soldering in a leaded lytic for a replacement.

I am heading back to Protel tomorrow so that they can have a proper look. They might be able to get some more info from Apogee and so on, but I think I can take care of this one myself without issue. Thanks for all the help gentlemen. I really appreciate it!

 

[useme2305]

the value of the cap seems to be the same as the left one of the row of three tants in the pic...you can still see it in the hi-res pic.
i'd just get a regular tant and remove the burnt one with the tools i have and replace it...like others have stated.

 

[bruce0]

Dear Mr. Insomniac Clown:

Summary:
1) Consider not using leaded components unless you must. See below.
2) Pictures of my Apogee guts for your reference. See below, and see link to PhotoBucket for more general photos of the whole unit.

(Mine and yours look to me like a 4.7uF 50 V cap (yours look like tantalum but mine are black maybe tantalum's come in black too), but someone better with SMD markings may disagree)

bb

1) Leaded components

I pulled the top off the Apogee Ensemble case (boy that is a well built case, no wonder it is so heavy).

I photographed generally inside for my records, and in particular I have a couple of photo's for you.


Rather than a leaded component,  use a SMD component, a leaded component might put stresses on the pads (with SMD there is no hole for structural support... no through hole plating, so the pad can just be pulled off the board) and if you lift a pad getting apogee to sell you a new board could be a problem.  SMD is not difficult if you are careful and patient, and a cap is not a very sensitive component and it only has 2 pads.  If you have trouble (which you wont) just use two small irons to heat the pad, and lift the component with tweezers.

If you do use a leaded component, do so in such a way as to apply no stress to the pads, and hot glue the component down for that same reason.

2) Photo's

Here is the area of your cap

Here is the area of the Board Identification

Here is the general board overview

If you want more pictures, I have 14 of them up on the Photobucket site, just follow the links to the album.

 

[Rybow]

Very Nice! Thanks for all that info. I was just working on uploading some more pictures, but you beat me to it! Looking at your photos, our main boards are identical.

Going by useme2305's post, I checked my caps again. Mine read 475, 50K (the K has lines above and below), 717. It looks like 4.7uF, 50V is what I am after.

Good points on the leaded components. I didn't think about stress on the pads, and you make a good point about lifting them off the board. As to Apogee, I think Protel will have more luck dealing with them then I will. I am still going to head down there today just to see what can be done.

Thanks for all the help!

Ryan

My pictures are nowhere near as nice as yours are, but here they are anyway.

 

[bruce0]

No problem.

(Pics are from iPhone 5, which I just got, the camera seems pretty nice, and has a flash).

Good luck

b

 

[radardoug]

Check across that cap with an ohmeter, see if it is shorted. It is a very common failure for tantalums to fail to short circuit, if the power supply is grunty enough it could just burn the cap out, mostly they blow fuses or just stop things going.

 

[Rybow]

Well there is good news and bad news. Good news is that it is fixed! The bad news is I didn't fix it, so it's going to cost.

I dropped if off at Protel last week so they could talk to Apogee. At the time I wasn't 100% confident in my ability to replace the cap. After some contemplation of the suggestions here, and some additional research, I thought I could get the job done. However, Protel went ahead and did the repair. I was hoping they would send me a quote before going ahead. Oh well. Next time I'll be more clear about wanting a quote. The upside is that it's only $125 NZD, and I get a warranty on the repair.

Live and learn. Next time, I'll do it myself.

 

[bruce0]

Did you find out what they did?  Just curious in case mine ever does what yours did. Did they just Replace the cap or more stuff?

BTW... Sounds like a fair price for the repair...  I don't think you could get it done for that in the US ( $102USD )

Not even sure there is anyone that will pick up a screwdriver and fix things here anymore.

 

[Rybow]

Did you find out what they did?  Just curious in case mine ever does what yours did. Did they just Replace the cap or more stuff?

BTW... Sounds like a fair price for the repair...  I don't think you could get it done for that in the US ( $102USD )

Not even sure there is anyone that will pick up a screwdriver and fix things here anymore.

Yeah, they just replaced the cap. The guy I dealt with told me that Apogee had them try a couple of different things, and they gave it a good testing as well. I have it sitting here beside me now, and I couldn't be happier! Works great.

Protel was really good to me. They only charged me for one hour of labour. I am guessing that doesn't include all the back and forth with Apogee. They also didn't charge me for parts. They did try to sell me on a profire 2626, but hey, they are a retail store.